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Hey Abraham,

I’d love to here more of than 22 words you have to say about this subject, as it is exactly what the mission of my blog is—to give glory to God through art. I think our readers would benefit from it too. Is there any way you’d do a guest post on the Plow?

~Mike Anderson

Hmm…good question, I think. Part of the problem is that to be “accepted” by the broader art culture, one must be “on the fringe.” Much like a Christian scientist who wants to succeed has to downplay his faith in order for his work not to be rejected by the scientific community. There is incredible pressure here because the choices are pretty stark.

I wonder if part of the problem is that Christians with artistic gifts who are in churches that are not on “the fringes” are sometimes discouraged from pursuing careers in the arts. In other words, perhaps it’s not that good Christian artists avoid the center, but that gifted people in the center avoid the arts. I think many in the reformed and evangelical world hold a pretty healthy view of vocation that says, “Whatever you are called and gifted to do, do it to the glory of God.” But, somehow, that view of vocation doesn’t seem to extend to the arts. The arts are kind of frowned upon.

I think Robert’s perspective is true. I think it might be the center that avoids the arts. Of Course this could be a chicken/egg issue since it’s hard to tell which came first, the center avoiding the arts or the arts avoiding the center. I’m inclined to think it’s the former given the history of the protestant church’s revulsion toward art/symbolism.

Perhaps it is because the center is self-defining–the great reality which cannot go unaccounted for. If it cannot go unaccounted for, then it is discounted as something less than it is really is: in other words, it is pushed to the periphery as a new center evolves as a substitute–a center defined by us.

Art is attractive today to many who would want to define reality as an interpreter and not the author. After all, we cannot know what the author intends for us to understand, right?

Timmy, I really have no idea what you’re talking about. Do you mean to say that those within the center have pushed out the artists by redefining the center? And isn’t artist-as-interpreter-of-reality the way artists have always defined themselves?

As a Christian reformed in my theology who is also a member of the arts community, I feel the tension between the heady approach to life and the heart-y approach. Artists tend to take the heart approach, and this means that often our heads are not quite right. I think this (artificial) separation between heart and head easily takes hold within the conservative portions of the church, with the “head” people feeling somehow superior to, or at least more grounded than, the “heart” people. So the heart people sort of get pushed to the outside and therefore more into their heart-y-ness, which means they tend to get further away from the truth.

Is this something of what we’re trying to get at?

Andrew, I think you are getting at a helpful explanation, because you are not letting either group off the hook.

Come to think of it, since God’s truth through intellect and God’s truth through emotion are both essential, any explanation that would lay the blame more on one kind of person than the other would seem suspect to me.

Andrew,

It does not matter what I mean to say; rather, whatever my words mean to you, that’s what counts.

Okay, being more serious, I was trying to make the point that the center is obtrusive to some artists because they don’t have the freedom to define their own reality. The great reality, God, who has defined himself and is binding on the consciences and strokes of all artists, is the centerpiece. Art can *sometimes* be an elusive way of trying to escape that reality or redefine it altogether in one’s own, esoteric way. And in that subversion, there stands the immovable Artist whose canvas cannot go ignored, so we just paint over it with our own creations.

Bob Boilen, the host of NPR’s “All Songs Considered” recently wrote this on his show’s blog:
“I don’t think I’ve met a young, creative musician who was not politically left of center. In fact, I would go as far as to say that a huge majority of any crowd at any of the concerts we’ve done … — with bands like The National, Regina Spektor, Arcade Fire, Okkervil River and Iron and Wine — were all Democrats.”
I realize that Boilen’s anecdotal observation isn’t the same one that you make, Abraham. It’s a very different one. Still I think a consideration of the tendency he has observed may shed some light on the issue you’re asking about.

I think that In order to be successful most Christian artists today tend to appeal to a larger audience. To do so they have to be more in the center with their theology. But in the artist mindset - if you are a true artist then you want to move away from the mainstream, thus limiting your appeal to a fringe contingent. Is a starving artist a true artist?

I am an artist as well. I see things in abstract and with my emotions. But I also fall under the theology of the reformed doctrine. Which I can testify is a complete working of God. It just doesn’t naturally line up with my tendency’s.

Abraham, do you know of many musicians who are reformed in their theology? I used to think that Derek Webb is but I read some off the wall stuff from him lately. Your thoughts?

Abraham, you raise a great question. As an MFA student in a creative writing program and a member of a reformed church, I run into this tension all the time. I don’t feel at home in the literary world, which (on my campus at least) assumes that a writer and thinker simply could not embrace the Bible as Truth. And I don’t feel at home in the reformed Christian world, which sometimes seems to lack an appreciation of mystery and beauty and complexity.

I think ultimately I agree with Andrew and Abraham that both sides are at fault. In my pride, I tend to think that beauty lies in what I wish to see/believe, not in what God says in His word. My heart tends to veer from center…which is part of the reason I feel so grateful that God has placed me in a church which proclaims the centrality of the gospel.

And yet I do think that reformed theology appeals to the thinking side of us that likes linearity and having things all figured out. And to me, God is bigger than any system or five points or diagram. As a writer, I want to show that mystery and beauty and bigness in my work. But I can sometimes feel like there’s not space for that in reformed circles, like if I can’t prove my point systematically it’s not worth making.

I don’t think the answer is ever losing the center, but I’m still trying to figure out how to be an artist within it.

Barry,

I pay very little attention to the musicians I like. I find that the less I know about them, the more likely it is I’ll continue to enjoy their music. As soon as I find out that they beat their kids or that they’re a posthumous millionaire because their song was used to sell Cabriolets, I’m just not that interested anymore.

So…no, I don’t listen to any musicians who I know are reformed.

Also, you write: “if you are a true artist then you want to move away from the mainstream.”

I don’t think that’s true. I think people who want to look like artists do that. They are posers just like those “artists” who do whatever it takes to be popular.

Good artists will do what they do without letting popular success be their main motivation. This will leave some in the main stream and others completely out of the river.

Abby,

I think we can rest knowing that anything true about God–any 5 points or system–is big enough for us to endlessly explore his bigness, beauty, and mystery.

A sure sign of a faulty system is if it stifles that.

Of course, a faulty system still may be mostly true, which means it’s not good to leave it behind for it’s faults. And that brings us back to the original question.

Too bad. I almost thought we were getting toward an answer.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BTW, what’s your focus in your MFA?

…lots of thoughts, but just one honest question: Why must there be a problem with most Christian artists not sharing your theology?

Andrew, if the head/heart distinction really is artificial, then it’s also true that (to reframe your last line) “the head people sort of get pushed to the inside and therefore more into their head-y-ness, which means they tend to get further away from the truth.”

Are you comfortable with that? I think anyone who is convinced that the church should be a home for artists needs to be…

Abraham,

Good thoughts. I think the system’s pretty good. Maybe the problem comes when we place so much emphasis on getting a system right that we forget the really big God behind it, whose thoughts are not our thoughts, and whose ways are not our ways?

Regardless, thanks for starting the dialogue. It’s made me realize that I have a lot more thinking to do on this topic.

Oh and to answer your question, my MFA concentration is creative nonfiction…currently working on a thesis project about my relationship to the idea of church.

Abby

p.s. Tell your wonderful wife I said hi - we were in Navs together at PSU.

KP,

The problem I see is not that artists don’t share my theology. It’s that my theology breeds or adopts so few artists.

If artists can’t come from what I believe, then I suspect there is a deficiency either in my beliefs or in what I understand good artists to be.

I don’t think anything I’ve said has implied that the answer to my question is a bunch of artist-converts. That would just be one possible solution, and not necessarily the best one.

The problem I see is not that artists don’t share my theology. It’s that my theology breeds or adopts so few artists.

I’m not sure I understand the distinction–doesn’t “breeding or adopting” suggest “sharing”? That’s a small point.

Another small point…in my limited, anecdotal experience, “adopting” is where the lack is. All sorts of people leave their childhood church for all sorts of destinations (including other Christian ones).

Bigger point…I still wonder, though, *why* the lack of overlap between the two groups is troubling to you. (It’s not, as I bet you sense, to many Christians and artists.)

I wonder if meditating on why you assume this lack of overlap=deficiency=troubled Abraham would lead you toward some fuller responses.

I’ll do the same,
Karsten

Hey sir — been following your blog with interest. This one stuck out to me. How do you determine that most artists are on “the fringes of your kind of faith”, especially when you say you don’t know much about them?

Just curious what that would look like, I suppose.

Keep up the brevity experiment!

That’s a good question. I have 2 answers, neither of which are very concrete, but I hope they are helpful.

First, whether I try to know anything about an artist or not, certain things come through, either in their work or in their reputation. For instance, it’s almost impossible to know anything about Flannery O’Connor and not know she’s Catholic.

Secondly, I just get the vibe that most good artists are theologically different than me. Then this vibe is confirmed by the fact that whenever I talk about it no one of any stripe ever disagrees.

On a different note, I want to be clear that when I say they are on the fringe of my kind of faith I do not mean they are on the fringe of Christianity at large. I’m sort of imagining a bunch of overlapping circles. Someone can be at the edge of my circle while standing in the center of their own perfectly legitimate Christian circle.

I don’t know if that makes any sense.

Abraham,

if you are looking for a band with Reformed theology, check out Thrice. Their two most recent albums (The Alchemy Index & Vheissu) were heavily influenced bu GK Chesterton..and of course, Scripture.

i’m a high school art teacher and drawer/painter. though i find it hard to find other gospel centered artists, i find it hard to find many serious artists at all these days. but thats probably because i’m in the suburbs.

a few more factors might be:
_ how many Christian families are willing to send their sons and daughters into an arts vocation? While i don’t want to downplay the importance of providing, there seems to be a lack of understanding about the viable art and design careers out there.
_ how many Christian schools, K-12 and colleges alike, make the arts a priority? Many can’t afford or don’t choose make the arts a priority.

What I see in the church is a growing pragmatism toward things that “work” and away from expressions that glorify God but have no immediately discernible, quantitative value, and which may fall outside of the 4 or 5 songs we call “worship”, preceding the sermon.

Also, I perceive (as a musician) a sense of protection against the Luciferian sin of pride. Pastors are so scared to get a “rock star” that they have settled for worship leaders with humility and a “good heart” who lack true, God-given talent.

God used only the most skilled craftsmen to build his temple…it matters to him. If we bury our head in the sand, afraid that people might sin (*gasp*), then we are depriving our churches of the expression of excellent, God-glorifying worship.

I may be biased, but I think the problem isn’t simply that the music “could be better than it is” but that many churches are robbing God of praise that is due to him.

This reminds me of the quote from Ravi Zacharias, “Jesus didn’t die to make bad people good, he died to make dead people live!” In many churches, worship is not just bad, it’s dead.

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