Mar 26, 2008
Sometimes the girl should ask the guy out. (But the guy shouldn't make her have to.)
God used Deborah when Barak wouldn’t step up.
Couldn’t this also (sometimes) be God’s way of matching faint-hearted fellows with gutsy girls?
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Well…it’s probably not “conservative-mainstream-
theologically-correct” practice, but the fact of the matter is, yep. Sometimes it takes that, and no, I’m not speaking from personal experience.
I don’t agree but maybe I’m just too conservative! If she has to ask him out how else is she going to have to lead in the relationship?
Kellie, first off I should say that Molly agrees with you, so you’re in good company.
The question of how a man’s weakness will affect the relationship as it progresses is very important. There needs to be an answer, but I don’t see it precluding the relationship altogether.
Every man goes into marriage with flaws. Some of these flaws make it harder to get married in the first place (wimpiness), and some make it easier (over-confidence).
I don’t think we should reward cocky sinners with marriage, while wimpy sinners must overcome their sins first.
Both need to fight their sin, because it will damage a marriage if they don’t. But to sometimes fight either arrogance or cowardliness in marriage seems appropriate to me.
Also, it’s intriguing that after the story of Deborah, in which male leadership fails so embarrassingly, the first thing she and Barak sing is “That the leaders took the lead in Israel, … bless the Lord.”
Do you consider the story of Ruth another example?
I’m not sure I agree. My thought is that moderate arrogance in a man is less potentially damaging to a marriage than moderate wimpiness.
Here’s something else I just thought of regarding how a man’s weakness may affect a marriage down the line.
It doesn’t follow that a man who is too scared to ask a woman out will also be too scared to lead a woman he’s in love with. A woman you’ve never been out with and a woman you’re married to are in totally different categories. How nervous you are around the one may not pertain at all to how you will interact with the other.
I think that things are a bit blurry with your question – there’s a difference between “ask out on a date” and “initiate a dating/courting relationship”/DTR.
I’d say sure, girls should be able to ask a guy out to dinner. But, in my opinion, girls should NOT attempt to initiate a dating relationship with a guy.
You run into several problems.
1. Distortion of male leadership.
2. Potential confusion on both sides about the man’s true feelings towards the woman – does he really love her/want to marry her, or is he just dating her because she’s the only one who ever gave him the option.
Does it happen? Yes. Does it sometimes end up “okay”? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it should be encouraged/condoned. Sure, I would say that “sometimes it is God’s way….” – in so far as God causes it to happen and uses it. But whether or not it’s His revealed will, I’m not so sure.
I always thought even the wimpiest guy would muster the courage if he was interested enough? At least, this principle has made my own life much simpler!
I would agree with Abraham: there is a huge difference between leading your household and chasing women you find attractive. It’s a bit like the election myth that the person who can look most calm and sound the most pithy on the campaign trail will make the wisest decisions in office.
It would be unwise to claim the biblical high ground exclusively for a culturally conditioned extra-biblical courting ritual – even when it does seem to accord with the general biblical model. Isaac never had to ask anyone out…
And appealing as simple rules are, they are no match for biblical discernment and wise counsel.
That said, when your wife asks you whether you love her, to say “I chose you – and in so doing said to no to every other woman on the face of the planet” sounds better than: “Well, I agreed to meet up with you in Starbucks.”
I guess it could go that way…however as a single gal in her 20′s, it sounds horrible. The heart of a woman longs to be noticed, sought out and pursued. It just sounds second-best to have to ask out a guy because he is nervous. I hope my love story doesn’t include me having to approach a wenie guy to take me to dinner.
Could someone send this to a girl in my Hebrew class?
PLEASE
You should send it yourself, Joshua. That way you’re asking her to ask you. That sort of muddies the water of this issue, eh?
Anyway, the worst that can happen is that she say No…
Actually, a lot of other bad things could happen, but that’s most likely bad thing.
Also, she might say Yes, so you got that going for you.
The guys shouldn’t make the girl have to ask him out (But sometimes she may have to). Emphasis on what should happen not on what sometimes happens.
Girls who decide to dive in and ask the guy out when he’s actually been weighing it up before the Lord for the past month are no help to anyone. Guys who don’t ask girls out because they may do out of boredom are also no use to anyone.
If a girl feels she need to say something there are ways to do it without snatching leadership.
She could say “I just want to inform you that I would like to be in a relationship with you. Think about it and pray over it and if you would like to ask me out please do. ” This way he is in charge but her feelings are made known. Notice Deborah told Barak what God wanted him to do, but then Barak made the decision (wimpy as it was).
But ladies fear for the purity of your soul and his more than never going out with him. At the fall your desire became to rule over him, don’t pander that desire. Moreover, it may be a good lesson for him to work up the courage to ask you. This is a last resort.
How do you know whether to do it? Ask godly people, both women and men (especially your father if he’s a Christian) and pray lots (especially that he’d save you the trouble and ask instead).
I think women need to be more considerate of the fact that having to be the one doing the asking is a very nerve-racking experience. No one likes to be rejected and as women, we often don’t think about this because we usually get to do the accepting or rejecting.
Maybe it isn’t “right” to come out and ask a man on a date (although I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that) but as women, we can usually give SOME hints as to our interest and/or openness in beginning a relationship with someone so men have a better idea of when the chances are less likely that they would be rejected!
I could talk about my opinion, and really my opinion varies by the possible scenarios…
But, I suppose if a girl is attracted to that wimpy guy and wants to deal with the possible issues later in regards to those weaknesses, then go right ahead.
Shannon, your comment raises another reason a guy may be unable to ask a girl out.
He may not be wimpy, he might just be clueless. She’s dropping all these hints and he’s just not getting it. Her hints become more and more obvious, until her last hint is, “Hey, you wanna go out for dinner?”
So if we say there’s no good reason for a girl to ask a guy out, then we’re handicapping both the scared guys and the clueless ones. And, really, after that, how many of us are left?
I read the story about a very happily married Christian couple where male leadership is firmly in place, and she was actually the one to very bluntly suggest they get married even though there was really no previous relationship to speak of. It made for quite an interesting and humorous story.
That sounds like a segui to homosexuality if I’ve ever heard one
“How nervous you are around the one may not pertain at all to how you will interact with the other.”
Oh how true that statement is… even when you end up in the dating stage… how you are with someone the first couple of dates is different then when you are actually “dating.”
Interesting convo.
What about the guys that aren’t simply “weenies” or “clueless” but see that the asking out of a particular girl and being rejected by her could lead to some social akwardness that affects more than just the two invovled?
If the guy and/or girl is mature… He (or she) will not allow that :). Or it’ll be a great learning lesson on how to handle said situations.
Check out this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Db9OVpqCMGE
Hi, I found your website through a link from another blog. I don’t want to give an opinion on this issue, but I want to say that I appreciate that you think outside the box on this one. So often in conservative Christian views this viewpoint would absolutely not be esteemed. However, where in Scripture does it actually say this viewpoint is wrong? I don’t believe it does…
for sure girls may ask a guy out nobody knows our feelings they are the ones that say everything not the opinion of somelse.A girl ?what about that you had a big crush on this shy guy that likes you,but he can’t ask you out cuz he is way to shy?wouldn’t u ask him out i think you would because the heart say everything.Really trust me because i had an experience with that.Today i’m really happy being with the guy i love and i know that he loves me back.if you care for my opinion go for it trust me it’s worth it, but don’t follow my opinion if you don’t think it’s right ask your heart…!!!!
I like the casual coffee date idea. I feel comfortable asking friends of both sexes to go to coffee. It’s inexpensive, informal, and can take as little as one hour, so it is not an expression of romantic interest but it is an expression of friendly interest. To me at least. I wonder if this is just cultural, or if it applies all over the states? Single guys, if a girl in your circle of acquaintance asks you out to coffee, what would you think?
When a non-believing guy asked me out to dinner and a movie, I was quite flummoxed and did not handle it well. I wish I had suggested coffee instead.
Really?
Really?
I think all this surprises me…
Sorry I’m a year late responding to this post!
I just think it would disappoint me if I knew that I was the one who asked the guy to dinner…?!
I guess you way the costs…
But I think it would be more of a cost to know that I had initiated the date than to not go on the date.
To which I say…
Really?
Really?
What century are we living in? And why are we (as women) so insecure that we can’t handle having asked a man out on a date? Is it because our culture/circle/whatever says we shouldn’t & so we don’t want to admit to it? I’m so confused as to why this could possibly be considered “wrong” or even “disappointing” for a woman.
A man may have all sorts of reasons for not initiating something – let’s not sum them all up with “weanie”.
Personally, if I see something I’m interested in, I would see nothing “wrong” with asking a guy out. Depending on the situation, I might play it cool or drop hints just because that seemed the better or preferable (for me) route. But it certainly wouldn’t be “wrong” .
Good grief. Must I also sit in the back of the church with my hat on, keeping my mouth shut?
This all is super interesting…
Us girls are all going on tradition. It’s always been the guys role to ‘pursue and conquer’ if you will. I still think it is the guys role; that being said I don’t think it’s anywhere near sin for the girl to initiate a date, though I agree with Summer, we don’t want to have to. If you’re the kind of girl that goes up and asks guys out on a regular basis, I’d say sit tight.
I actually always thought it would be embarrassing for the guy to BE the one asked out. I guess I would think that it would be him admitting he was scared. Maybe not.
I like the meet for coffee idea, way more casual.
Had she asked me out a lot sooner, it would have saved her the 6 years of waiting to be told no.
Is it really this complicated?
What I hate to see are women having crushes for years and years on men. Why not ask and get it over with? If he says no then you haven’t wasted time on a crush going nowhere. If he says yes then Yippee!
I really didn’t think you had to have a Masters of Divinity in order to understand the pecking order of asking someone out? I must be way out of touch. I really didn’t think it was this complex.
Precisely, Jeanie.
I had no clue she thought she was in love with me. I always used words like “sister” and “friend”.
Funny note: My pastor said that guys who hang around girls all the time use to be called a “Dandy” (sissy, girlie-boy). Haha. But seriously folks, nowadays it’s common in our culture for guys not to have any guy friends at all. Sad day.