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Take-it-or-leave-it as one word. Bold, my friend, bold.

I agree in principle. My brother-in-law, though, hated college, dropped out after a year, and has been successful and happy in pretty much everything he’s done since. I guess he might be better off somehow if he’d finished, but it’s hard to see how. I can think of a few people like that, which means there are probably a lot more.

i disagree. Not everyone is suited or meant for college. This is not always a matter of intellect but matter of what career path you want to choose. Case in point.. HVAC, Plumbers, Fireman, Policeman. They all require additional training, some more extensive than others, but not college necessarily. I know plenty of plumbers that bring home a heftier pay check than I, and I graduated from college.

Regarding “take-it-or-leave-it”:

Though it’s a phrase, it serves adjectivally. And, if I understand correctly, prenominal phrasal adjectives are hyphenated–making them one word.

I think you’re right that there are a lot of folks like your brother-in-law.

My point is not that people like him made a bad decision. I’m just saying that skipping college is a decision that should be made a lot more carefully than most people do (myself included).

It should be given the same weight, in my opinion, as the question, “Would it be a good idea to quit high school?”

Sometimes the answer will be yes, but rarely.

Karen,

You’re right that their are other kinds of higher education.

I do include Tech School in my idea of college, but I suppose there are also apprenticeships and such.

I think that I disagree. The ramifications of quitting high school are far greater than the decision to forego college. Not having a high school educations closes more door than one thinks. And a college education doesn’t necessarily open as many doors as one might think.

Doesn’t the college decision depend a lot on what your goals are?

I meant “not having a high school education.” Sigh. A college education and I still have typos….

In agreement with Karen’s point, there are many trade jobs that require much skill and have excellent pay. Unfortunately, our culture, and maybe our generation especially, doesn’t respect these jobs as much as a post-college job. I’ve heard that soon there will be a shortage of HVAC technicians.

I’d also point out that the benefits of a good college education surpass what can be measured in a career track. Among other things, it can help develop your thinking skills!

Since you are including Tech schools and apprenticeships under the umbrella of “college”, are you meaning that college is a means to a good job and therefore important -or that educational benefits are the main goal?

Usually people quit high school because they don’t do “book learning” well. That may not be the case for college. Often, those that choose not to go to college choose for more practical reasons that don’t include a trade job and that don’t replace further education.

Other than the degree, college is merely an accountability partner for learning. You choose what you want to learn and they try and help you learn it. Most everything you can learn in college, you can learn on your own.

But, yes, weigh all options. Though I don’t think it compares well to the not-finishing-high-school analogy. The reasons/consequences are too different.

In my experience, a college degree is a necessary, though not sufficient, part of getting a job that doesn’t involve processed meats.

-r

College can be a waste of time and money. Steve Jobs only had a semester of college. Bill Gates dropped out after two years. And they didn’t do too bad.

If you’re going to be a doctor, engineer, academic or something similar, college is necessary. If you’re going to be an entrepreneur, it’s often not.

Self-education is very easy these days. You can even listen to professors through the Teaching Company that you’d have to go to ivy league schools to hear. Books abound. Knowledge on any topic is a couple clicks away.

I disagree that “deciding against college is like deciding to not graduate from high school.” I think a high school education (or equivalent) is necessary for most decent jobs unless you’re starting your own business or have connections. But college is often overlooked if the person has the experience and skills required. I know lots of stupid people who have attended college, and many smart people who have not. When looking at a resume, I look at what they’ve accomplished, not what school they’ve attended.

Of course I’m a bit biased here, having dropped out of college myself and having no desire to go back.

I am still a student, but my husband graduated from the top program in the top state school here in Illinois. In the end, his degree had nothing to do with his finding a job. The job he got was based on his past experience and the people he made connections with. Having a degree doesn’t carry that much weight in some fields.

[...] Abraham Piper says that “deciding against college is like deciding to not graduate from high school.” Here was my comment: College can be a waste of time and money. Steve Jobs only had a semester of college. Bill Gates dropped out after two years. And they didn’t do too bad. [...]

I disagree, somewhat. I have friends who went to college simply because that’s what was expected of them. They walked away with a bachelor’s degree, thousands of dollars in debt, and very few job prospects–and they’re currently working at jobs that have nothing to do with what they majored in. I do agree that college is important, and many times necessary for getting a job, but it doesn’t always end well for kids who don’t think about the purpose that college should serve, or whether or not they have the funds to pay for it.

Said another way — getting an education is more important than getting a degree. Two things which are becoming less and less congruent.

Disagree. Too many of my peers have graduated from college, only to find themselves hugely in debt and no job that suits them. So they settle for a low wage job that has nothing to do with what they studied in college. My brothers, on the other hand, out of highschool went right to work in basic business, then later opted to go to tech school, one as an electician, the other as a power lineman (both very good jobs). While this is often frowned upon, I admire their guts to wait it out and to be in the workforce for awhile before deciding on a career path.

Also, like the above have mentioned, it depends on your goals. Obviously, if your goal is to be a Bible translator, you’d better get a excellent language education. If you’re like me, a homeschooling mother to three active boys—the best higher education I can think of to qualify me for my job is “remembering” how to climb trees!

From a university administrator of 17 years . . .

College is not for everyone. Every year, I see dozens of students who are not ready for the collegiate environment for one reason or another go into debt or waste family resources through half-hearted attempts at a collegiate career. Some have yet to develop the discipline needed to be successful, while others are simply not cut out to be college students.

A college education often creates more options in life, but it does not guarantee success. A strong work ethic, however, is a different story.

Remember, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, technicians, and other tradespeople are still needed . . .

Whatever is not of faith, is sin

The Lord does not call the same thing for all men.

I wonder what Pastor Mahaney would say about his non-college degree self.

I ain’t finshedi colage scoohl adn fidn miself vry capabel.

I loved college!

Yeah, I’m not “using” my degree. But college isn’t just job-training.

College is a whole experience. It’s about meeting, talking, arguing, listening to people who think & live differently. My college experience sharpened my reasoning skills and helped me understand WHY I believe what I believe. Sure, there are many kinds of people who don’t want/need to go to college.

But for the most part—it’s an excellent and unique opportunity for learning.

Certainly the West is going in the direction of “degree-proliferation”, which is too bad. A BA is almost useless in numerous fields, and we are getting to a point where even an MA will only open entry-level doors in some fields. The legitimacy of the doctorate is being called into question with degrees such as the D.Min (which is pure and simple academic prostitution) in the religious arena, though the secular arena is also giving away PhD’s like condoms in NYC.

Don’t worry. In twenty-years the entire system will crash and our children will get to fix the mess. On that positive note, hope every one has a great day!

(FYI - my tongue was firmly inserted into my cheek during the writing of this comment)

Abraham
Thank you for clarifying re tech school and apprenticeships being along the same lines.

I also agree with those that say that education does not always go hand in hand with college. I did get a strong base of knowledge in college, as a RN a degree is required. I gained more knowledge from life, my obsession with reading on various subjects, and really listening and dialoguing with those who I admire.

So, I reiterate college is great for some and not all. It shouldn’t be a knee jerk decision to go (or not to go). I did at 17 and flunked out b/c i wasn’t emotionally ready for college. I had no idea what I wanted to do. Fast forward to when I was 27 and I was ready and was successful.

I think education is necessary. I think going to college is valuable. However, I do not think it’s necessary to have an I-Love-Me wall of degrees to be valuable in our society.

But that’s only the opinion of a constantly-moving-Navy-wife with 10 transcripts, almost enough credits to graduate and no degree to show for it. Hence I’m wondering if I used a phrasal adjective correctly and have no clue what prenominal means (even after Googling it).

Now I must return to dusting my husband’s I-Love-Me wall of masters degrees. I suppose those little plaques do pay the bills. Thanks for an engaging discussion topic!

Many businesses promote based on your degree, not your experience. Sad, but true. Many businesses hire based on your degree, not your experience. Sad, but true.

That said, I can tell you that I know a number of people with degrees that don’t have a lick of sense or the desire/wear-with-all to work in business.

College is only valuable if you value it - if you are willing to make it applicable to your life’s work. Otherwise, it is a fool’s game.

If you mean that many colleges’ standards for education are about as strenuous as a high school’s, then, yes, choosing to forgo college is like dropping out of high school.

A college education is not what it used to be.

okay, this is me speaking from the ivory tower, i guess, but i think you’re wrong on this one.

now, all throughout my childhood, it was expected that i would go to college. it was never even an option for me. mostly because my parents were convinced it was THE way to get a good job these ways. and they’re KIND OF right… kind of. other people have pointed out plenty of exceptions already.

but equating college with high school is, i think, the biggest mistake. high school, being compulsory (for most states?) is supposed to ensure the entire population is reasonably educated with what we consider a basic skill set in today’s society - both subject skills and learning skills.

college is different. yes, there’s definitely a vocational aspect, especially these days. but what i think some people don’t understand (my parents certainly don’t) is that it’s about more than that. my parents scoffed at the “best college experience” argument when i was choosing schools, and i suppose if you thought college was mostly about the dorm and cafeteria and school spirit experience that would be a little bit shallow. but it also should be a time to build character as you build your mind. you learn how to think critically and think broadly and, hopefully, how to integrate knowledge into your life. college did that for me.

so maybe i wish everybody would go to college, for that experience. but if some people aren’t interested in that, or just really aren’t cut out for school, i don’t think they should have to go.

I think that Abraham’s point here — that the bar is higher today in terms of what “entry level” means — is wholly sound.

Let me suggest that all of you make a friend who is 15 yeras older than you are and ask him or her if they either -regret- going to college or, on the other hand, regret -not- going to college. Especially the “entrepreneurs”. The exceptions frankly prove the rule.

Go get a decent liberal-arts college education. And maybe minor in accounting.

True. College is probably a lot more like highschool used to be “back in the day” so to decide not to attend college is like skipping out of high school. When I graduated from college with my Bachelor’s degree, I considered graduate school as if it were the next normal step and if I was going to be a “slacker” I wouldn’t attend grad school…I decided not to go and decided not to be a slacker.

The problem seems to be more within the system of collegiate education than with the people deciding not to go…grade inflation perhaps. It starts in the high school too and then all the way up (at least through the Bachelor’s degree) its too easy.

Probably another aspect that has made college much like high school is the tendency it has to extend the “acceptable immaturity” phase of life. To not go to college would mean having to get a job and probably one with health benefits, etc. No more Christmas/Spring break trips!! Its not as much fun to not go to college!

Who knows…it depends on the individual and the field they wish to pursue. Something within the established educational system should change though too…

(This is mean’t as a tounge-in-cheek response, but I may need grace applied for going a little overboard):

You are so right about stressing the importance of a college education. It is a priviledge that truly assists our proper contribution to today’s society. And for this we should remember to be truly thankful, especially to God, for equipping us in this manner. Truly He is deserving of our prayer and praise. Perhaps a prayer that goes something like this:

God, I thank thee that I am not like other men … even this high school graduate who did not go to college. I give you all the glory Lord, for allowing me to spend four of the most selfish years of my life in relative ease, where I could “earn” my badge of entitlement without being distracted by the cares of this world, and even work out my salvation without all of that “fear and trembling stuff”. Indeed, those friday night Campus Crusade meetings were “rest for the weary” enough for me.

But now that I’ve graduated, I’m thankful that you’ve produced even greater fruits in my life. Statistically speaking, Lord, this high school graduate will never be able to tithe as much as you have enabled me to, and I thank you for the priviledge to have this greater impact to further your kingdom.

It is by your grace alone that I recognize the accomplishment of this very important educational status. And I am devoted to being a good steward of the talents you have entrusted me with. While you are off desperately seeking sheep #100, someone needs to apply themselves so they can hold the fort for, or even rise up to lead, the other 99.

I know too many people, who either (1) dropped out of school (High School and College) and now make $80,000-$90,000 a year, or (2) got a Bachelor’s/Master’s and now make $7/hr selling books at Barnes and Noble to take traditional schooling that seriously.

There are some obvious benefits (being in an environment that actually fosters learning being the main one), and some career choices demand it, but for many, it’s purely social/family reasons that they go.

I have an Associates degree that I never use if anyone wants it.

Economists call it human capital formation. (I am looking forward to the day when one of my kids says, “Dad, thanks for investing in my human capital formation”). Economists have noted for years that the return on a college education have been increasing over the past decades despite the fact that the cost of a college education has dramatically outstripped the inflation rate over the same period.

Some readers will point out that money isn’t everything. And of course they are right. Better a Christ-treasuring ditch digger than a worldly physician. But on the whole, in our economy, people find more long term satisfaction from the careers that require post-secondary education. And I think finding pleasure in your work is a very worthwhile, God-glorifying goal.

What I find odd, and slightly disturbing, are several families I know that assume that their sons will attend college(and encourage them to) and assume that their girls will not attend college (and discourage or even forbid them).

Steve

If God wants you to go to university or college then it’s important for you to go. I spent ten years there, and I’m glad I did, but only because I was pretty sure God wanted it for me.

ED.

SINCERE IGNORANCE AND CONSCIENTIOUS STUPIDITY
http://blog.myspace.com/CAUGHTNOTTAUGHT

[...] this post, Abraham Piper poses this question and comment: How Important is [...]

I also wonder if economics data about “college grads earn more” is interpreted correctly. It could be that people earn more because they attended college, or it could be that college grads earn more because motivated and successful people attend college, and people who are not motivated often do not attend college and don’t get good jobs (because they are unmotivated).

That is, people who attend college might have been just as successful if they didn’t attend college because of who they are, not because they attended higher education. Correlation is not causation.

Definitely Disagree. I’m thankful for my college education, however, I don’t believe the Lord only or even primarily works through college educated individuals. God is sovereign over one’s choice for higher education and another’s choice for another path.

I think I agree with you, Abraham. I also agree with a few other statements here in the comments. Of course God uses people who don’t have college degrees! Praise God that He uses even the most uneducated to do Kingdom work! College is not going to make you more “spiritually educated.” Only the Holy Spirit can do that. And yes, I do think the “ramifications of quitting high school are far greater than the decision to forego college.” However, there are still some major consequences of missing out on college. Consequences that aren’t as much tied to how successful you will be, but HOW to think and how you learn for the rest of your life. I don’t think college should be tied so tightly to getting a good job (or ANY job, for that matter). In my mind, college is more about building into you the less tangible things like endurance, the love and importance of learning and balancing work and friends…things like that. But it’s the way the college experience stretches you on HOW you think that I would argue is the real benefit.

I disagree for a couple of reasons. Firstly, my father is a very successful database manager for a financial company, witout any college education–just lots and lots of experience.

Secondly, it will depend greatly on what the Lord is calling an individual to do. College is extremely costly, both financially and in terms of time, and if it will not help a person towards their calling, then why invest so much resource into it?

I myself have been to Bible college because of my desire to enter into ministry, but I do not believe that higher education is as necessary as high school, not by any means. I do not think young people should be under huge pressure to enroll in institutions which may further them in the rat race, but not necessarly spur them onto their calling in the Lord.

Short answer: College is good, and the decision should be taken seriously, but it is not on the same level of necessity as high school.

I am grateful to God for the college education I received. I am successful ONLY because I completed the level of education I did.
I would also like to point out that this education is being used to bring in the “sheep #100″. In fact, in order to have credibility to enter and work/minister in other countries, where most of the “sheep #100″ live, you need some level of higher education!

I couldn’t be happier with my decision to drop out of college. Not only did the classes in my field at my school run at a glacial pace that catered to the lazy rather than those excited about the content, the “well rounded” requirements were just bizarre. I had to take a film class, but the econ class (by far the most valuable class I ever took) didn’t count toward my degree at all.

I’m sure college is exactly what a lot of people need. But for the motivated self-learner who doesn’t want to spend his life working in a corporate ladder maze, college seems pretty optional.

i have two bachelors degrees from a well-respected private university. and i graduated cum laude.

i work at starbucks.

to pay off my 20K in student loans.

I would love to hear college graduates weigh in regarding the financial costs of college . . . as the parent of three young girls, my husband and I often wonder if college will be in their future.
We don’t assume they will each go to a 4 year university. Perhaps they will choose a vocational school or specific training . . . perhaps they will want to go to college.
But we wonder about the financial ramifications. We don’t believe we should go into exorbitant debt for their higher education, and we don’t believe our girls should be saddled with upwards of $20k in debt.
Please, thoughts anyone?

i guess what i’d like most is to see true equal opportunity for all. because in certain circles of society, despite all the rhetoric about choice, going to college is just not an option. and in other certain circles, despite all the rhetoric about choice, NOT going to college is not an option.

as for that return-on-investment argument, i’m just not sure that’s going to be true in today’s economy. my total education is probably going to cost $250k (100k for undergrad and 150k for grad - most of which i personally didn’t have to pay, but SOMEBODY did), all so i can probably be a professor for a few years and raise some chillun. if we’re talking monetary capital, i don’t know that i’m really going to be able to pay Uncle Sam back.

I think I disagree and yet I want my children to go to college. Does that make me a hypocrite?

Lets put it this way… there was a point in time where it really was a no-brainer to go to college and a no-brainer as to what the outcome would be if you didn’t.

But that is not true any more. You can be successful without it IF you know how to be successful and professional. You have to know what it takes to have a career and a good work ethic, understand a little finance and/or money management (whats a 401K, 457k, Roth IRA and so on).

In fact you need to be like that after college too but you might get away with it if you have a degree.

One word…inflation. Education has experienced major inflation. It used to be that an 8th grade education meant you were literate. Then it became the High School diploma. Now you can barely guarantee a student is literate and able to “think” when s/he graduates with a BA. College is necessary and useful to some and not to others and as such should be weighed very carefully before engaging in the expense.

I went to college and loved it. I’m a homeschooling stay-at-home Mom of 2. I’m wondering just how often I’m using that $40K degree. My husband has his Master’s in education and was a great teacher before the MA. He says his MA made him only slightly worse of a teacher. LOL.

Thanks for excellent discussion!

Here’s my question based on many of these comments:

If high school cost 50 or 100K would we start asking whether God was calling our kids to go?

I agree with many of your responses–my point is merely that the choice to not go to college should be made with the same sobriety and realization of the consequences that the choice to quit high school should be made with.

Of course, people can be successful w/o college. People can be successful without high school, too, but we think it’s important enough that we don’t give almost anyone except delinquents the opportunity to prove that high school is sometimes as unnecessary as college.

if i went to college right now for what i want to do, i would end up being $30K in debt for training on something that has been almost completely self taught. it doesn’t make sense for me. i make the same amount of money as people with degrees n the same field.

i think it all depends on what you want to do. for example, i’m all about dave going to school if he knows what he wants and needs it to get there. but for me, it doesn’t make any sense at this point.

to be 100% honest, if i could go back and do it again, i would go to college, just for the experience (as long as i would still have all of my other experiences). that makes no sense. bye.

Abraham,
Do you see college a necessity because of the job market or because of the need for more education?
What is the purpose of college in your mind?

Personally, I believe the original intent of college was to enlighten our minds; teach us to think by broadening our base of knowledge.
This particular need may be met by other formats with the advent of the internet…what I believe IS important: Knowing where to get the information that you need and how to evaluate the source.

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