May 16, 2008
Gay marriage is more than a speck, but there’s definitely a log in our heterosexual eyes.
Fighting gay marriage like it’s killing civilization seems inconsistent amid cultural curses like adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography—all hetero and legal.
Dude, EXACTLY! I live here in California and I’m honestly sick of Christians running around hyperventilating and foaming at the mouth about this–all the while thousands of children languish in foster care, we have a sky-high abortion rate, and many of our megachurches are filled with divorced/remarried Christians. It makes me gag.
Thank you for saying precisely what was bothering me the past day.
Yes, thank you for putting that into perspective.
[...] The Spawn of Piper* calls us to self-examination in 22 Words. Fighting gay marriage like it’s killing civilization seems inconsistent amid cultural curses like adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography—all hetero and legal. [...]
Agreed.
Agreed. So do we get involved in remedying the other problems (divorce, adultery, porn) with the same energy that many others attempt to outlaw gay marriage?
I understand that you are putting things in perspecive. But the post begs the question as to what involvement a Christian should have in resisting/redirecting policy and government.
So true.
But then how are Republicans going to motivate their base to get to the voting booth? ;-)
I would say that we get involved (over our heads) in the mission that Christ sent us all on… “GO! Make disciples… Preach the gospel to every living creature.”
What if we took all of the determination and resource and effort and poured it into understanding how to reach out to our culture more effectively and sharing the love of Jesus with them? Maybe these things would remedy themselves?
Good post. This whole topic makes me evaluate what I should be trying to accomplish when dealing with an issue like gay marriage. What is my goal? Shaming people and turning people off to anything else I have to say, or showing love and compassion to all but still speaking the truth, humbly.
And as far as policy/gov’t involvement – as citizens we all have the ability to tell our representative what is important to us. How else will they know? I don’t think it needs to be on the grand lobbyist scale. A thoughtful phone call or letter from a single voter is worth a lot. – Whatever the issue.
Amen.
[...] Abraham Piper’s 22 Words on the subject: Fighting gay marriage like it’s killing civilization seems inconsistent amid cultural curses [...]
The government should get their hands out of marriage altogether. It’s a religious act. The government may have an interest, but they have no jurisdiction.
Yes, given our overall cultural situation, I have a hard time with the idea that gay marriage would be the end of the world. It’s one more symptom of the much bigger problem.
Reminds me of the protests against the new (old) Starbucks logo. I’m sure if we continued not to be able to see the mermaid’s whatchamacallits there would be mass revival. Plus they make a fine cup of coffee.
I once wrote about something similar to this, Abraham. It’s all about our tenor when speaking about homosexuality.
Humility with Homosexuality
An important point is that gay marriage isn’t yet legal in most places, while these other devastating vices already are. Should we promote godliness (and its appropriate measures for government) in adultery, divorce, etc? Absolutely yes. But is it LOVING to work against the legalization of homosexual marriage when you’re convinced it will be terrible for society? Again, absolutely, yes. Even when those other things are rampant? Yes, I think so.
Humility is indeed called for every time we point out any specific sin. With this sin in particular tone is all important.
Do follow the link to Rob’s fine post (above)
Gay marriage is so far down the list of importance that it’s difficult to justify how some “pro family” organizations can spend an enormous amount of time “protecting traditional marriage” while giving the leftovers to fighting abortion.
@Sam James, you are so right. There are so many things that are more important. I agree with most of the posters. We need to do our part about issues that are already on the table!
[...] against it, of course, for many reasons ranging from the theological to the Constitutional. But as Abraham Piper pointed out this morning, we have much worse things going on– in the church and out of it. We [...]
The word “fight” is interesting. I am not sure that opposing the grant of legitimacy to what is overtly sinful is speck hunting. Silence would not be the right response, but fighting the right way is vitally important. We must lead with the gospel and not expect anyone to turn from any sin unless the gospel has taken root.
22 well chosen words. Thanks.
No, no, no….(smile!)
It’s not inconsistent! It is important to speak out against BOTH hetero AND homogenous sin. It is maybe unbalanced, but not inconsistent!
Embracing and accepting alternative marriages is simply another step in the wrong direction! Just because we do one thing wrong does not mean we need to open our arms wide and do the NEXT thing wrong!
Embracing alternative marriages as a society is acceptance of a planned and forceful agenda. As far as I know, there is not strong coalition for the advancement of adultery! (Could be wrong, as it is a strange, strange world.)
As far as I can tell no one on this thread is embracing alternative marriage. It’s about specks and logs, not embracing.
Well, there’s ABC, NBC, CBS, MTV, Fox, UPN, Cosmo, People… :-)
While they’re certainly not plotting together in smoke filled rooms about it, they all do their part to advance the notion that people can and should have sex whenever, with whomever, they please.
[...] Abraham Piper – “Gay marriage is more than a speck, but there’s definitely a log in our … Fighting gay marriage like it’s killing civilization seems inconsistent amid cultural curses like adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography—all hetero and legal. Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]
Right Abraham!
The cure for specks and logs alike isn’t Visine or even our grubby little fingers, but Christ, so if we are to fight for something, lets fight to share the Gospel more clearly and more often!
Where the heart leads, the body will follow.
Disagree Totally! (for what it’s worth). It is one thing for Christians to “foam at the mouth” in opposition to things which appear to be culturally destructive, most people would agree this is wrong. It is another thing to see an issue and recognize that it is of lasting cultural significance. If we change the definition of marriage we are toying with civilization as we know it. I would argue that this is much more important and transcendent then divorce or pornography. While the two are deplorable they are expressions of sin within a culture. They are destructive, but they involved no redefinition of the glue that holds society together. Gay marriage certainly does. Count me as one who will oppose it with all the grace and compassion I can, but I will oppose it just the same, which is both my right and my duty as a citizen.
it seems to me that part of the reason Christians “fight” gay marriage so strongly is that we feel we still have a chance to win, whereas divorce, abortion, exploitation etc. have advanced much farther or seem more the losing battle.
in truth though, ALL of these battles are “losing” battles in a world that is going to end someday, but what has that ever had to do with it? we ought to keep “fighting” on ALL fronts for truth and justice. and that means, as others have said above, first and foremost preaching the gospel. and maybe the rest will “take care of itself,” at least insofar as we can hope on earth.
I wrote about this on my own blog but I state almost exactly the same thing. Without hyperventilating I do think it is important to be involved in public policy and preserving the definition of marriage. At the same time I think it is unfair to get bent out of shape when heterosexual apathy and abuse is far more pernicious.
Noting the double standard does not negate the need to preserve marriage.
Abraham, while I am concerned with the tone of the societal discussion, suggesting that one severe sin is not such a big deal because of other severe sins expresses a level of comfort with sin that cannot be tolerated in the Christian life. We must examine ourselves constantly to remove the any acceptance of sin.
exactly…don’t let sin get a foot in the door. How we attack sin however is another matter and too often the family groups yell first and pray later. Accepting Gay marriage is a slippery slope and I am always amaazed that if its constitutional for two girls to get married than why can’t a guy marry two or three consenting adults? Honestly where does it stop? I can guaranty that some animal lover will eventually argue that he should be able to pop the question and declare his inheritance to man’s best friend. Give it 10-years.
Actually Larry, you don’t have to wait that long. Being a news junkie, in the past year I’ve read a news article in which a lady in the Netherlands “married” herself (I am not making this up), and another about a lady in Israel (I believe) who got “married” to a dolphin (I am not making this up either).
Just to prove I’m not making this up:
Woman Marries Herself
Woman Marries Dolphin
Wendell Berry’s poem, “A Small Theology” seems a fitting insert:
“With God, All things are possible”-
that’s the beginning and the end
of theology. If all things are possible,
nothing is impossible.
Why do the godly then
keep slinging out their nooses?
(published in 2005′s “Given”)
I disagree Abraham,
There is a difference between sin comitted by individuals and sin made law by government.
“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. ” MK 7:13
We need to stand against sin. The believer’s strongest stand, however, begins on our knees. Only then can we go — WITH God.
Comparing 2 humans, made in the image of God, fallen, just like you, wanting in their view, just to join their life with another’s like other people get to do — to human/animal marriage?
Should I be sarcastic here and say that’s exactly the intelligent discourse that makes everyone involved feel valued and see that Jesus loves them? or should I just be mad, because I am trying so hard to show people who don’t love God His value and worth, and you are making it SO MUCH HARDER.
Please. please. I get it. You are disgusted, you think it’s terrible. You have nothing to prove. Please, please STOP with that. please.
That last comment was to John Murphy and Larry, in case that wasn’t clear.
I agree with you Abraham, on the terms that you have presented. I would also like to add another factor that has not been discussed thus far: the government’s constitutional responsibility is not to legislate morality, and I believe that especially applies in this issue. Marriage is a religious institution, and as Christians, we understand it to be a union between a man and woman before God. Therefore, non-Christian “marriage” is nothing more than a civil, legal contract — I think this applies to pagans just as much as it does homosexuals. Therefore, I don’t understand all the fuss… people make contracts for immoral things every day and we don’t petition the government to make them void. It’s a misunderstanding of governmental responsibility and the true nature of marriage.
I do not think it is possible for a government to not legislate morality. If you really want to limit government in that way, then should be remove all morally based laws? For example, should we permit stealing? Also, how would we take Paul’s words in Romans 13 which might be paraphrased as saying that government exists (at least in part) to restrain evil? If governments are not to concern themselves with moral issues, then exactly what are they to do?
Steve:
Great question. The government, in America at least, is established to protect life, liberty, and the country from enemies, foreign and domestic. Thus, we can see where opposing abortion in the public arena, for example, should be something the government is involved in (protecting life), whereas civil contracts is not (homosexual “marriage”). This is how our constitution is written for the protection of the Church. As soon as we begin to ask the government to pass laws regarding moral issues, we are opening ourselves for attack in the future — we must look at the longterm effects of “legislated morality.” The role of government must not be adapted if we are going to maintain freedom of religion, ours as well as the ones we certainly disagree with. I doubt that most people actually want the government as involved in their everyday lives as these types of laws tend to assume. Next thing you know, they’ll be in our pulpits telling us what we can and cannot preach because they’re simply attempting to “legislate morality.”
As a pastor, it grieves me to see people selling their bodies for money, taking and selling drugs, or uniting in homosexual unions (to name a few), but I realize that the issue is not the law or the government, but sin. I commonly hear and read Christians who make arguments against certain issues without ever addressing the real issue, namely the depravity of man and the need for God’s redemptive work in the hearts of lost sinners. If we dabble in legalities without ever going to the fact of the matter, we’ve failed in our responsibility and have shown the world once again that a lot of Christians are more interested in works, not grace.
It’s probably easier to legislate against vice than it is to legislate in promotion of virtue.
I tend to obey the speed laws more because I think there may be policemen around than I do because I love the 70mph limit…
I’m sure it’s fine to vocalise an antipathy to gay marriage, in terms of a preference for sexual purity, but Jesus was clear that in the same way we judge others, we will be judged, and with the measure we use, it will be measured to us. It is not helpful to be hypocritical about the issue. On the other hand, honesty is about the only way to make a difference, isn’t it?
—
SINCERE IGNORANCE AND CONSCIENTIOUS STUPIDITY
http://blog.myspace.com/caughtnottaught
so you’re saying that 9/11 may NOT have been caused by God’s wrath against homosexuality?
nice post, btw.
oh my word, abraham. do you actually read all these comments? too many. too long.
this issue reminds me that I get these AFA action alert emails in my junk mailbox. they’re always urging evangelicals to boycott this or that because they sponsor homosexual groups or something.
they also urge evangelicals to boycott certain retailers who refuse to acknowledge Christmas during december. it doesn’t even make sense. why should a non-Christian retailer have to acknowledge Christmas?
i think this was too long. i hope you didn’t read it.
You raise good points. I perform civil ceremonies as part of my job. Recently a woman bragged to me that she was a frequent visitor to our office — this being her third wedding at the courthouse. I thought to myself, “If it is wrong for me to perform homosexual weddings, why isn’t it wrong to perform this ceremony as well?”
Yet, if I take your statement further, then I shouldn’t oppose adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography “like they are killing society” since there are other sins we commit as a society and within the church that are doing the same. Then I stand for nothing and in my silence approve of all sin.
I content that we must stand for the truth, love our neighbor as our self, and love God with all of our heart.
You are right. The issue of gay marriage really goes back to the 60′s when people argued that a little piece of paper (marriage license) didn’t mean anything, and people began to accept adults having premarital sex and living together as being just fine. At one time these were seen as serious wrongs, but society became desensitized to them. Divorce was at one time viewed as a tragedy; but many people have come to see it as an understandable development in relationships. Now people are being desensitized to homosexuality. I don’t even want to mention what people are going to try to pass off as normal if gay marriage becomes perceived as acceptable. I have already heard an “expert” in psychology try to argue on a news talk show that some people are “born with” a tendency to desire sex with children.
Here is the part that I struggle with. John Piper and many other pastors show so skillfully and passionately how marriage give us a picture of Christ and his bride. It is a picture of Christ and the church. Yet we are often told to be quiet about the Christian aspect of the issue when we discuss it in letters to the editor and contacts with legislators and similar audiences because if we bring up faith, then people will say, “Not everyone is a Christian. You can’t expect us to base our laws on arguments related to religion.” Yet that is the very reason why a law allowing gay marriage would be wrong.
So we can present research and arguments that exclude the Gospel and we might get laws passed to protect marriage, but people will not know why. If we include the Gospel, we may not get the right law passed, but some people might realize the truth and be saved.
A brief review of the history of preaching will reveal that Godly preachers of righteousness have always “hyperventilated” against sin. They didn’t wait until a world-wide campaign for homosexuality began. They were hyperventilating against adultery, divorce, and fornication of all sorts way before this current abominable generation. They were castigated as back woods wing nuts then, just as they are now. No difference, just another chapter in the world’s head-long plunge into godlessness. I have no idea why people can’t see it. I guess it’s the frog-in-the-hot-water thing. You just get used to it. It’s easier to switch than fight.
BTW, “adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography” – THESE WERE ALL ILLEGAL AT SOME POINT IN HISTORY. What do you think happened? For one thing, some Christians stood up and said “this isn’t a big issue, besides, none of us are perfect anyway so let it go”. So now they’re legal.
Do you think they should still be illegal, Joel?
Kudos to Nick for expressing himself logically and succinctly. Christians frequently (and incorrectly) suppose that without recognizing the moral and transcendent nature of law, that societies quickly fall into anarchy and decay. But law and order are emergent phenomenon that appear in even the most godless of societies. GMU professor Pete Leeson’s HREF=”http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/05/11/everyone_in_favor_say_yargh/”>research into pirate societiesrevealed that many institutions that we now take for granted in modern western democracies emerged as a necessity of order in early pirate culture.
Steve
I wish there were an easier way to do hyperlinks in comments. The reference I attempted to create is here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/05/11/everyone_in_favor_say_yargh/
I get it. Christians are hypocrites. I think, however, you could have been a bit more wise in choosing your words. I don’t know about the Christians with whom you fellowship but where I am from we take adultery, pornography, and divorce quite seriously. Now, I haven’t demonstrated in the streets about “groundless divorce” but I don’t see why that means I cannot identify homosexual marriage as a significant threat to our culture.
Gay marriages are not killing civilization, it’s been dead since Eden. The church continues to clean a corpse instead of spreading the only conduit for resurrection – the gospel of Jesus Christ, which last time I looked, is offered to the gay and hetro community equally because they both need it equally.
Rick,
I couldn’t agree more with the second part of your post. But I am a bit confused by your opening lines. Do we not have a responsibility to our culture? I am not advocating the kind of political king making that has been so prevalent on both the left and the right. God forbid! But on issues of moral gravity where God’s Word is clearly transgressed do not Christians have the responsibility to speak up; to act? I wouldn’t characterize that as trying to clean a corpse.
I don’t know if gay marriage will “kill or civilization.” I know that marriage was instituted by God and serves as a means to illustrate the love Christ has for His church. Therefore divorce, adultery, and homosexual marriage should be resisted by God’s people.
To Abraham’s point: Past and present failures in some areas (divorce, adultery, etc) should not keep us from resisting further failures (homosexual marriage).
Gay marriage is socialist dream. Lawless and disorderly people pass lawless and disorderly laws after campaigning on law and order. Marriage is basic to all just human law. Authority to rear children, property,inheritance, and more depend on honorable marriage being honored by government. People who spout the pious pablum in most of these posts are cruising for a bruising, destroying their own liberty. Of course,that was the purpose of many who started government schools. Study some old law books to find out the importance of law. Read an old encyclopedia Brittanica on basic law theory. Respect your forefathers. If we dispise their wisdom, it is our fault. They understood and weighed a lot more than most in recent generations have any clue of. read “Men of the Covenant” by Alexander Smellie. Read about the Magna Carta. Graduation from high school or college or grad school doesn’t mean we’re educated.
Abraham, sorry for the delay to your question. The answer is yes, yes, and yes. Adultery, groundless divorce, and pornography undermine the moral fiber of society, destroy families, and weaken a nation’s standing with God. (Sin is a reproach to any people). They should be illegal again. BTW adultery is still illegal in the military. But thanks to the progressing lawlessness of our age, that too will eventually go the way of the other essential laws of an orderly and vital society that have been dismissed.
Let’s just be honest and call opposition to gay marriage what it is: bigotry. If you are a Christian and believe marriage is something created and formed by God, not the state, then no civil marriage would ever be a real marriage. And nobody is talking about forcing Churches to marry anyone they don’t want to. Gay people are real, they are taxpaying American citizens, and they deserve equal recognition of their two-person relationships. Given that there is no demonstrated social harm from same sex marriage (Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the country) and the government doesn’t perform religious weddings, there is no legitimate reason to oppose same sex marriage other than the desire to treat gay people as second class citizens for the way they were born. That’s bigotry and it’s exactly what turns off people like me to Christianity.
(And by the way, in opposing same sex marriage, you are ultimately encouraging gay people to have more short-term sexual relationships, which does have a demonstrated social risk)
Abraham…I do not agree with your statement and i am glad that others feel the same way..
To all the brothers and sisters who stood up for the sanctity of marriage the way God ordained it and defined it and stood up against the acceptance of homosexual marriage: Thank You! Remember Christ stood for the Truth!
I agree with Chris and Joel wholeheartedly and the other true followers of Christ…all true beleivers need to “hyperventilate and foam at the mouth” to stand up against the evils that satan brings about to destroy God’s master piece and plan . Homosexual marriage is a real threat to our society and it is just the beginning of evil things to come…when Christians slumber or become complacent and do not demonstrate & stand up & fight against the wickedness and evils of the day…we lose the battle and allow satan to gain more authority & ground over us and our nations…every time this happened some kind of an evil way became accepted & cherished and it grew like wild fire..adultery, groundless divorce, porn,premarital sex,abortion……all of these sins will testify against us Christians that we didnt do enough..we didnt sound the battle cry and we arose too late with too little…
By the way Abraham…was not John Piper who wrote this:
“My desire and prayer for you is that your life and your ministry have a radical flavor. A risk-taking flavor. A gutsy, counter-cultural, war-time flavor to it that makes the average prosperous Americans in your church feel uncomfortable. A strange mixture of tenderness and toughness that keeps worldly people a little off balance. A pervasive summons to something more and something hazardous and something wonderful. A saltiness and brightness, something like the life of Jesus.”
Thanks for setting us even more on fire for the Lord!