Nov 3, 2008
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Theme based on Derek Punsalan's Grid Focus.
I’ve never shouted before.
This is a good question for whether our services are more cultural than scriptural.
At my church, we eat and drink during worship every Sunday. We call it “the Lord’s supper,” though some denominations would use communion or mass as the term.
Of course, we eat about a bite of bread and have a sip of wine. Nothing one could get drunk off of.
This question points to an area of my own personal sanctification for the past 4-5 years.
Even after being born again (and obviously more-so before), I condemned and judged people who manifested all items in your list. I distrusted people who simply seemed happy, who smiled and looked joyful during worship. It took me some time before I realized that not only was I acting on unbiblical assumptions of what worship meant, but I also had a seriously sick, pride, and judgmental heart.
All of those listed areas are weaknesses of mine. I have asked God–and continue to ask Him–to break the chains of my own faulty, anemic conceptions of what is acceptable worship in order to worship Him with praise corresponding to His value, supremacy, glory, holiness, goodness, love…which often can mean making myself foolish! With grace and by focusing on GOD I’ve been able to awkwardly step out and begin to more enjoyably/genuinely raise my hands, sing, dance, shout…
I long for a more complete heart and body transition into David’s naked dancing from Michal’s scornful, inhibited, joylessly withered, self-focused, unloving and ungracious spirit. I have long lived in the latter!
I grew up in a pretty charismatic church (dad pastored a loosely- associated Vineyard from ’80-’95 and then changed the name, but it’s still pretty “out there” compared to B-hem) so none of the expressions you mentioned (and some you left out) are foreign to me. However, being around them and watching other people do them is quite different than actually doing them yourself. I think dancing has got to be the one that I have the hardest time “getting over myself” on.
Why is it that we’re so self-conscious that we think other people are actually looking at US during a worship experience? And more importantly, if we’re being self-aware and thinking about other people, is what we’re doing really *worship* in that moment? Hmm… anyway.
To your comment that “Biblical worship sounds more like a loonfest than a church service,” I think that when Paul rights the Corinthian church about worship in 1Cor 14:26-40, he sets out order as an overriding priority. I could see any of the things that you mentioned as parts of a worship service, as long as they are “done for building up.”
I don’t look down at people but i feel uncomfortable lifting up my hands (im kinda a tall person + wasn’t raised in such a church/family).
lol I’d love to see Abraham do some of these in a worship service. Especially the shaking one…but if “shaking” includes jumping..(which is normal)…then I’d rather prefer to see the falling one lol….
Totally uncomfortable with this type of ‘worship’ (the original video is in the description box).
Just last month our church had a day of prayer and fasting and during our Sunday School hour we stayed to worship and pray. It was a beautiful time of shouting, dancing, singing, kneeling, and bowing. It felt like a sweet gift from God! My heart felt like it was going to burst with joy–a foretaste of heaven. : ) That evening we had another meeting and I felt like it was ‘forced’ or that people were trying to generate that same ‘experience’ from the morning. It felt less restful and peaceful. I think expressive worship will always be covered with a peace and order. It’s beautiful when it’s ‘God-generated’ and not ‘people-generated’.
I’ve never heard of eating and drinking while worshiping. It seems different only b/c I can’t picture what it would look like. I personally don’t really like it when people shake or when they fall down backwards (‘slain in the spirit’).
None of the above are really a problem for me, although I admit, I prefer shouting if others are shouting–as in there is a spontaneous response among many of us.
Dancing–it depends on if you count just a little side step to the rhythm of the music. I’m sure I have never danced unto the Lord as in the Old Testament descriptions. I’m not even sure what that would look like.
And I have not experienced shaking or trembling personally.
Falling I have experienced once, and I have qualms about whether it was biblical or not. The falling that is described in the scripture you included–I do not have a problem with that–falling on one’s face before the Lord. But my experience was not like that. When I joined the Pentecostal church where I committed my life to the Lord, “slain in the spirit” is the one thing I had qualms about because I never saw it in scripture as I saw it happening in our services or on television.
I used to think everything beyond sitting benignly and singing was to much…
After several DG conference I changed my mind!
Things that seem to cheapen worship irritate me. This usually means something that strikes me as overly sentimental, cheesy, or overwrough t.
However, I’m reminded of something John Calvin wrote in his commentary on Galatians, speaking of the false apostles against whom Paul wrote:
So, what I know actually makes worship difficult for me is my own pride.
Do you mean in meetings as a church?
Singing-Not difficult unless I have a cold.
Dancing-All out visible dancing-not gonna happen! Ever-so-slight swaying can’t be helped.
Shouting-No shouting in our conservative fellowship.
Eating-Bread in celebration and remembrance each Sunday.
Drinking-Wine in celebration and remembrance each Sunday. (Babes and toddlers get to eat or drink their snackies during the meetings if needed!)
Shaking-More like shiver if it’s cold, but I fear I don’t serve with enough fear or rejoice with enough trembling as to shake.
Kneeling-We are a fairly “Up-right” group!
Falling-I tripped on my way to the bathroom once, but I recovered the fall.
Crying-More like unexpected weeping (unobstrusively and quietly, of course) at my sin in contrast to God’s holiness, mercy, forgiveness and grace.
1 Cor. 14:40
But all things should be done decently and in order.
I’m uncomfortable raising my hands. Either because of this or the cause of this is I look like John McCain attempting high-fives.
MMMM! This is a very good question!
I don’t see the problem with what you have listed. We don’t have this problem at our church (SBC). Everything goes very well. I don’t see the shouting or dancing in our church. There would be some swinging (dancing). I would be swinging while I am thanking the Lord for who He is.
I had been to church that is way overlyboard charismatic church that had rub me wrong thousand times over and over. I do have problem with people there that does goes too wild. I never had heard the gospel being preach to me. They all focus on the power that they have on themselves. Their healing service that seems to be fake. As for speaking in tongue, they believe this is the only way to be saved which is not biblical. All the time this speaking in tongue does get out of hand and no interpretation of what someone is saying
There is a very big different between gentle charismatic and way overlyboard charismatic church. My parent were gentle charismatic. I don’t have problem with my parent on that. Both have gone home to be with the Lord.
I am deaf. When they (Charismatic) see me with hearing aids they would call for me to come up. I don’t think that the Lord told them to do that, but they just want the glory for themselves. I never did like what they are doing there.
I do believe in healing but not the way they do.
I am so thankful for a wonderful church home that focus on His Word and preached His Word and the worship music is Christ Center and Cross Center.
Hungry for His Word,
‘Guerite ~ BoldLion
It is ironic that you would post this today. Yesterday was interesting, to say the least, at our church.
I married into this particular church a couple years ago and in that time they have become an increasingly Cross-centered reformed congregation but, according to my husband, in previous times they were an overly pentecostal bunch.
Yesterday started with the pastor announcing that we would have a time of prayer and “warfare” in light of the upcoming elections. Sounds good. However, their idea of warfare is for everyone to take up a brightly colored flag and wave it around while singing and praying “in the spirit”. This is very foreign to me and I’ll admit, I thought it quite foolish and did not participate aside from silent prayer. After inquiry, they say that the warfare with flags comes from armies going out with banners in the Bible. Weird, but I guess not altogether wrong. Everyone shouting out in their “prayer language” is chaotic nonsense in my opinion though. Definitely not the two or three, in turn, with interpretation as instructed in 1Cor.
“When the outward expression matches the inward condition there is integrity that honors God, influences others, and grants true freedom to experience and express worship to God more fully.”
In 2 Samuel 6, we see David expressing appropriate outward expression – done with integrity according to his heart. And Michal rails him for it – but David maintains that the maidens Michal was worried about, will actually honor him – his integrity of worship will in the end influence them positively. As for the “expressive worship critic” – Michal? She was cursed with barrenness from that point until her death.
Another helpful thought for me:
“It’s not how high we jump in our excitement for God, but how straight we walk when we come down.”
This is a great issue to discuss. What is meant by “order” in 1 Cor. 14? I’ve heard many people abuse and misuse and misunderstand that word and passage.
Some use it as a trump card, some avoid it like the plague.
There are 2 ditches, not 1.
um, I think I’d veer more towards a 1 Cor 12-14 view of worship, meaning that whatever is going on in there has to explicitly not look like a loonfest. Somehow it has to build up the church and proclaim truth to the outsider.
My personal fault here is the urge to jam my hands in my pockets and never raise them in praise for fear of distracting others from actual worship. I’m extremely self-conscious about it, and I am sure that makes what I do worse than just praising God in a sort of unbridled fashion.
Sinfully confessed: I saw a lady raising her hands while we sang “Jesus Loves Me” at a memorial service last night and thought she was pretty much faking it or just doing it out of habit.
I’m so “spiritual.” Jesus, save me from myself.
Many activities in worship are difficult for me. Rather then look down on people, I just wish I were more like them. Either way I am distracted, and that is the problem, right?… that is, my problem…
I’m gonna be a dancing fanatic in the new Jerusalem, though.
I’m with Frank on the hands in the pockets.
I tend to look down on others who knit during worship.
singing: i was last in line when god was handing out vocal gifts, but i don’t mind singing corporately. what i find myself NOT liking is when those who are leading singing show too much of their vocal gift (if you’ve every been to a majority black church, you know what i mean). i can’t stand that. but yesterday i had to remind myself that this person was worshiping the Lord, not me; and therefore my opinion doesn’t matter!
dancing: i was absent the day god handed out rhythm, so all i can do is sway. i don’t have a problem with others breaking out into a dance as long as it doesn’t interrupt the Holy Spirit’s work in the congregation … i.e. busting out into a dance in the middle of preaching!
same with shouting.
eating and drinking during corporate worship (love feasts and communions that actually include bread and wine instead of those insane wafers that have no taste) is great! fellowship is an act of worship.
shaking and falling: as long as it doesn’t interrupt.
kneeling, crying: sometimes it’s hard to help doing this type of stuff. as nancy leigh demoss said at the “true woman” conference, sometimes you have to “do business with God.”
Never been much of a dancer during worship. Don’t so much look down on those who do it as much as just look at them.
I often question the sincerity of, and am distracted by, people that are seemingly able to just “turn on” the emotion during worship (crying, etc) each and every Sunday. I immediately feel guilty and think, “Well, that person must just have a deeper appreciation of Christ that I do”.
One thing I have noticed is that often times a lot more hands get raised right as the worship music is at a particularly powerful crescendo. Are people genuinely more praiseful at that moment or is the force of the music eliciting a more dramatic response?
I’m sure this reveals something of how I view God (and I’ve never really analyzed it like this before) but I tend to look at people who are crying or appear broken/contrite during worship as genuine and god glorifying, while those who are happy/laughing, clapping, jumping around/dancing, etc. as distracting and totally missing the point of what we’re doing…
Jared, I’d say “both” in answer to your question.
After all, what would be the point in worship music if it didn’t elicit response?
Think of it this way. Our worship is a direct response to our view of who God is. So what does your worship reveal about who God is to you? Is your worship experience stoic and methodical? Or is your worship passionate and exciting? Because that will tell everybody how you view God.
Funny that this quote came to mind regarding this post. One of my favorite quotes from John Piper (you may have heard of him) is this:
“Worship must have heart and head. Worship must engage emotions and thought. Truth without emotion produces dead orthodoxy and a church full (or half-full) of artificial admirers (like people who write generic anniversary cards for a living). On the other hand, emotion without truth produces empty frenzy and cultivates shallow people who refuse the discipline of rigorous thought. But true worship comes from people who are deeply emotional and who love deep and sound doctrine. Strong affections for God rooted in truth are the bone and marrow of biblical worship.”
I like emotionalism in a service because it reminds me of the passion of my salvation.
But my husband feels the opposite, like he is being manipulated by humans.
I love dancing, shouting, raising hands… That all matches the cheerleader in me.
But I find that one out-of-place dancer distracting… Like the lonely hippie in Austin.
It is only a loon fest out of the context of daily living. You do every one of these activities as part of daily life.
I’m really conflicted about this! I grew up in a very somber worshiping church. I guess the whole “spirit & truth” thing was interpreted as meaning zero emotional expression. Emotional expressions were viewed as distracting exhibitions. Things are looser at the church I currently attend–lots of clapping, raised hands, swaying. It doesn’t seem like we’re worshiping God better or worse–just differently. I don’t know. I’m still confused about this…..
Ro 12:1 – Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship.
I think its important to remember that when we are in church, we praise God together and that we are also encouraging each other.
To prevent broken fellowship we should be aware when culture gets in the way of our worship and becomes a stumbling block for either ourselves or others. Whatever that culture may be.
i can’t dance in church. i really feel at least part of it is that i associate ‘assembly + dancing + stage’ with the rock concerts of my youth (up to present day) and it either feels sacrilegious (like church is a show) or goofy (when i picture, say, moshing to 90′s CCM).
that, and i never end up at churches where people dance.
anyway, i like that this was a strictly biblical list of worship activities. it reminds me once again that Christianity is weird enough without our trying to make it weirder (ribbon-dancing and Nerf-throwing during songs, anyone?).
i enjoy our secret society.
Someone made this comment:
“I often question the sincerity of, and am distracted by, people that are seemingly able to just “turn on” the emotion during worship (crying, etc) each and every Sunday.”
I can see why a person might think crying every week is fake, but it might not be. There was a point in my life when nothing made me cry. Now after many different hard experiences, losses, unsaved loved ones in desperate situations, etc., I cry almost every week in church. I don’t think anyone notices because I really try not to be noticeable, but the tears come very often in church. I don’t think it’s because I am any closer to Jesus than others, though. I don’t really know why.
I think it’s more about different personalities and different seasons of life. I appreciate the witness and ministry of many different people who may never cry or do any of the things listed in this post, but you just see them walking the walk every day and always having something meaningful to say in various situations. There are so many other ways that people hold out the Word of life to others and show that their faith is sincere, as it says in the book of James.
I try not to look down on others for how they worship. I haven’t been to that many different kinds of services that varied greatly from my denomination.
I am pretty reserved in church and I don’t even really like to clap let alone.
But I’m also one of the (feels like a minority these days with fellow Christians) minority who loves hymns and if given a choice would pick hymns over praise songs any day.
But that’s not your question. Your question is what do I have a difficult time doing? Anything that is loud or makes my limbs move other than standing and sitting. ;o)
I try not to look down on worship expressions unless its obvious they are feigned. That’s when it gets disturbing.
But sometime I get put off with “swooning” even if it appears genuine. The reason? I admit it: jealousy.
I’m saddened by a lot of these comments. As part of the “essentially reformed” movement of Sovereign Grace Ministries, I’ve been privileged to see and learn from our leaders and most church members the “wedding” of the Gospel with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I’m currently reading Sam Storms’ book Convergence, which is very sound as far as this wedding goes.
The reason the comments make me sad is that so many people responded to being uncomfortable with biblical forms of worship so much so that they’re unheard of in their churches or personally.
Come on, guys! We’ve been bought with the blood of Christ and saved from eternal wrath and get to spend eternity ENJOYING the living God! Let that sink into your head and your heart will be so affected that your hands can’t help but be raised up in holy joy. You might even shout for joy and your feet might send you dancing and the Holy Spirit might even overtake you with such excitement over the thought of eternity with him and such humility over the grace he’s given you that you literally can’t stand up in his presence.
I’m still new to it all and can be uncomfortable with it, too, but let’s not let discomfort allow us to miss the presence of God and the joy he gives in this life, not just the next.
I spent most of my teen and young adult years in a charismaniac pentecostal church. During my time there I took up ‘flagging’, basically waving a large flag free-style at the front of the church… (and I tried not to make it tacky… no shiny metallic fabric for me! lol)
While I definitley struggles with my motives from time to time, I hope that my form of worship reflected God’s glory and beauty to the people in the service, rather then distracting people.
I enjoyed it, and I honestly felt God’s presence stronger with a flag swooshing around me the any other time…
In the process of changing churches, these opportunities have been lost, and I’m sorta scared to approach my new church about the possiblity of using my flags in worship… it’s different and unfamiliar.
I’m looking forward to waving a gigantic flag in heaven though :)
I wonder if the way David worshiped would have made us uncomfortable too? I sure made his wife uneasy. But wasn’t he the apple of God’s eye?
I don’t look down on others for the following action I note; I just can’t bring myself to do this per my mid-western, early church upbringing…..I feel very uncomfortable raising my hands during worship.
The most difficult activity in worship is the one that feels manipulated or forced. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Lift my hands – you bet, and can’t help myself
weep – every week, heart filled with joy, arms lifted in worship, tears flowing. If you don’t cry during worship its hard to undestand, but it is by no means fake. For me it is a combination of an overflowing heart, feeling the presence of God with me, and feeling unworthy all at the same time. They are the most cleansing tears I’ve cried in my life.
I’ve even been moved to stand in worship when…ahem…nobody else was standing.
I don’t look down on anyone’s method of worship – people go where the Holy Spirit takes them. My 20 year old daughter even has a prayer language (prays in tongues).