Dec 3, 2008
Churches should pay more.
Churches shouldn’t enforce a standard of sacrificial living by paying employees minimally.
They should enable abundant, joyful generosity by paying them amply.
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I agree with you, but sometimes it’s impossible. If the people aren’t giving amply or budget concerns get in the way.
Christians should also tip more.
Rachel, that’s why the “should” is so important. I speak this to my own shame, but people who aren’t giving amply are awfully attached to their own resourcefulness and not to God’s. It’s especially telling how a people who fail to give amply expect the church’s servants to live in a way they refuse to.
Amen and amen. I will add Christian universities. It is my joy and blessing to work at one, but I don’t think it’s right to pay dramatically below fair market prices in the name of ministerial sacrifice.
Meh. You’re biased. ;)
Also, I think the Apostle Paul would tend to disagree.
Hmm… where’s the link I tried to include? Oh well, cf. 1 Corinthians 9:15-18. =)
Shouldn’t a minister’s earnings be about average of what church members earn? Makes sense to me.
Not sure that Paul would disagree. More freedom to give, more blessing. More treasures to be stored up in heaven.
Travis- Paul must have changed his mind. :)
I couldn’t agree more. Our church has a daycare and school and all the employees are paid minimum wage. It makes me sick.
Preach it!
Rob Hulson said: “It’s especially telling how a people who fail to give amply expect the church’s servants to live in a way they refuse to.”
Word.
Growing up as a PK, I saw firsthand how hypocritical and vicious people can be when it comes to the pastor’s salary. While I don’t think a pastor should be given to excesses (including spending), I do think he should be duly compensated… just like you would expect in a comparable secular job.
I find it interesting and sad that I made more money in my first year working, post-college degree, than my dad earned after 23 years in the ministry. After my dad retired, they increased the salary by $10,000 for the next pastor.
I praise God that my father never complained, drove a school bus, painted buildings and trimmed trees to make ends meet for our family. Mom taught us to economize by stretching the dollar. And, they taught us to generously give. (Tears in eyes)
Travis/Tony …
Paul never changed his mind. As with most Scripture, context is key. Paul was thrashing the Corinthian church for pridful reliance on their abilities, including paying for the best and the brighest. Paul discerned it best not to take their money and feed their egos.
The principle that this post suggest is right and proper, and in line with Scripture. And it must be tempered (as must all things) with proper focus. And that focus is the Gospel.
The point isn’t to be generous for generosity’s sake … we’re to be generous to reflect and show gratitude for the grace that Christ showed to us.
On the recipient side, staff and pastors ought not demand the highest possible wage; but should be willing, instead, to sacrifice (again … focus is the Gospel) anything and everything.
Could you imagine a church that paid its staff ridiculous amounts of money and the staff (and the church in general) then, in love, gave ridiculous amounts of money back to the church and to the needs of the community?! How cool would that be?
It doesn’t happen, in part, because both “sides” are too worried about keeping the humility of the “other” side in check and not worried enough about ensuring that the grace of the Savior is praised through sacrificial giving.
As to I Tim 5:18
Missionaries receive less than minim wage, yet they work 7 days a week, 10 to 15 hours a day proclaiming the Gospel an adding the the kingdom in numbers, feeding the hungry, nursing the sick, teaching the word,taking teaching children, building homes. I know I was one.
Church staff do no of such things, do not spend even 8 hours a day preaching the gospel, the pastor at best preaches one hour a week. I know been on church staff. What if we paid pastors by the baptisms. A 100 people get saved as a direct result of their going out and preaching the gospel, they get paid for each one that week. Christians switching to the church don’t count, it must be people who come to Christ. When Paul said “The laborer deserves his wages.” he was speaking of men like himself and Peter, Timothy, men who where devoted to Christ and preaching the gospel adding the the church daily, men who where not in it for the money, for Christ and the Kingdom, it was a calling, life purpose.
Todays Missionaries if anyone are the one who need the raise, they are the laborer’s deserving a good wage, but then they are too busy about the Father business, perching the gospel, feeding the hungry, praying for the lost to worry about such trivial worldly thing as wages.
After all no one becomes a missionary for the money. Nor should any pastor. “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” I never did as to money, if I wanted that I would not have become a missionary or a pastor, I would have work for IBM or Google.
I agree. As church members we should give more generously. Have we ever considered giving as much as we can instead of as little as we have to? We are blessed to have the ability to give and should count it joy. I don’t think we should pay huge six figure salaries but we can’t expect pastors to live off of what we never could or would.
Let us all be generous, according to what we have, Spirit led, faithful and joyful givers.
Why not give a good portion of that Christmas bonus?
I myself would rather take the church job whether it pay much more or basic salary (minumum wages at $6.55 an hour) with guarantee 40 hours and fix hour. It would be a joy for me to work at the church, or working at LifeWay Christian Bookstore, or working with Focus on the Family.
I can always get a second job after working at the church or whatever job I have as the first job, if I do need addition income. I have to learn to be content with it.
Right now, I do make minimum wages and it does not guarantee 40 hours a week at the secular bookstore. I can’t get a second job because my hour is not fix. (I am still job hunting for better job even in minimum wages but fix schedule and with guarantee 40 hours a week, so that I can get a second job.) Right now, I am having hard time to pay the bill.
By the way, I agree with Paul.
By the way, get rich quick doesn’t buy happiness at all.
We all need to be thankful for whatever job that we have. He (The Lord) will use us.
For Christ Alone,
‘Guerite ~ BoldLion
Pastors need to be paid with sufficient means to manage their own households well, and to allow them to be charitable–not the church charity case.
Question: should wages of church employee (not necessarily a pastor) reflect job performance?
This is an incredible discussion. This is something I will now look into more.
My 2 cents: No one should be paid based on the number of baptisms and church workers should get reasonable (and certainly livable) wages.
That second cent could be taken the wrong way, but it’s meant to be tempered with wisdom and the Spirit.
And I love Matthew Tilley’s comment.
Good word, Abraham, thanks. And not just because I am a pastor.
it pains me to consider how i’m going to pay off the loans i’m taking out in order to get the degrees that churches will want me to have. i’m not complaining, it will all be joy. the numbers and desires just don’t add up at most churches.
When I think about this discussion, I wonder what makes “church staff” special in the receiving of compensation.
Is there more reason to compensate them than the Sunday school teacher who spends 20-25 hours a week studying and preparing materials? Or the youth worker who spends 10-15 hours a week preparing lessons, going to meetings, and hanging out with students?
Oooooh, this one has me fired up! I’m also a PK and we lived on a tight budget my entire childhood!
I agree 100% with Rob Hulson: It’s especially telling how a people who fail to give amply expect the church’s servants to live in a way they refuse to.
And with Rosanna: Growing up as a PK, I saw firsthand how hypocritical and vicious people can be when it comes to the pastor’s salary. While I don’t think a pastor should be given to excesses (including spending), I do think he should be duly compensated… just like you would expect in a comparable secular job.
But as for Dennis Muse, I don’t doubt you were on staff at a church but your experience is so different from mine! And your tone bothers me. To say that missionaries are too busy about the Father’s business to worry about trivial things like wordly wages as if pastors aren’t as well?!?!?! I don’t know any pastors who went into the ministry for money. Seriously.
A Pastor is on duty 24/7. Growing up I can’t tell you how many calls my dad took in the middle of the night and at all hours of the day to come visit somebody sick in the hospital, or someone that just lost a baby to miscarriage or stillbirth, or to comfort somebody in the death of a loved one, or to come help with a marriage in crisis or a child/teen in crisis. I could go on and on! Not to mention countless hours at the church. And countless NON-emergencies.
And of course it goes without saying that he does all of the above as unto the Lord and with genuine joy. I don’t have to tell you that. You assumed that. Right?
Matthew/Dennis- I agree that Paul didn’t change his mind. All in jest.
Jess – we’ve had that conversation at our church. We haven’t come to any conclusions, but it’s something to consider.
Well said Abraham. I had to deal with this exact problem as it pertains to me just this morning.
We should be known for all around for generosity. That includes salaries and tips, as much as possible. It grieves me that I don’t practice what I preach as much as I should.
I recommend Tod Bolsinger’s series of posts on Astonishing Generosity
http://bolsinger.blogs.com/weblog/astonishing_generosity/
This is a dangerous idea — in the right way.
Let me anecdotalize something briefly. Most new Christian bookstores fail. The reason is, frankly, that people should for Christian resources based on price and not on selection or content. Thus: Amazon.com sells more books than CDB, which sells more books than the average regional CBA chain.
But if we applied this standard to our pastors, we’d only employ the guy who was willing to take the least to do the job. We’d only attend the church with the smallest budget. We certainly wouldn’t pay extra for lighting or a sound system.
Right?
I think we should pay generously, and in the end we wouldn’t need Christian bookstores — but beware those who teach the word for profit.
I’ve been thinking along these lines for a few years, not only because I work at my church, but more because I’ve been wrestling with reality that student loans are holding back many, many people from entering full time ministry. The reason? Many Christians seem to believe that student loans are not part of the three (food, shelter, clothing) basic survival needs. In this day, student loans are nearly always part of a normal person’s survival package (and I’d argue that it shouldn’t have to be so, but as Lewis said, “Regardless of the way things ought to be, they will not be…”). So we hold back our bright, eager, available young people from full time ministry until they’ve learned their lesson and paid off their necessary loans. It’s a shame.
I’m blessed to work at a church that gives very generously, even in an area where affluent living is rare. Our entire staff receives salaries at about the average of our congregants and according to family size. But there is MUCH to be said to being compensated for work well done.
And then there’s the issue of paying single women far less than married men because the men are supposed to be the providers, or something like that.
This is 100% illegal in the secular world, but done often in the Christian one.
As to the pastor salary issue, our family have always given our pastor(s) an extra monetary gift at the end of the year, or on their birthday, as a way to say thank you for the gift of their ministry.
Now there’s a few that I’ve thought about asking for a refund….
I kid.
Sort of.
Amen, brother… Amen…
Just after the second world war my Uncle worked as an evangelist on a very low wage – I suspect it was all living on faith. He later moved to work for a mission which actually paid a salary. I remember my Aunt saying that when they moved to a real salary she found she had a lot more time to pray for other people, and could spend less asking God for her basic needs!
I wish there was a simple answer to this. Seems to me it depends on the Church. Some churches may need a pastor and not be able to afford one on anything other than minimum wage. Some churches may simply be mean.
I agree that pastors should be paid well and not forced to struggle to get by. (However if they are not working the equivalent of full-time, then it’s ok for them to pick up extra work)
I’m more interested in the compensation of employees who are indirectly related to the ministry (not teaching or preaching, etc). There are many office employees and other staff (web staff, sound guys, etc) that do jobs that are no different than what is done in the secular world (in terms of skills not worldview).
I think these staff should be compensated similarly to what the market would hold for people outside the church. And I think it should be performance based. If the office person can’t make copies very well or doesn’t know how to work a computer, then the job probably isn’t a good fit.
Does a church hire for these positions as a ministry to someone who needs a job (but isn’t very good at it) or in order to find the person who is the most gifted in that area? I honestly don’t know. I’ve never worked for a church, unlike many here, and am curious.
so many threads of this discussion seem out of whack to me. as i have read them all, boy has it been interesting, particularly because this topic seems to have really hit a nerve in every direction – from folks in the “amen” corner, to folks who want to have a “whose job is harder/who is sacrificing more” competition between missionaries and pastors, to folks who are moaning and groaning about the expensive education they need to become a pastor (what?), to folks who want to treat pastoral staff the same as we would treat employees at IBM. wow! are we really that out of touch with scripture and with our identity in christ and our place in this world as aliens?! so many of us seem way too cozy here and way too comfortable with the currency of this world!
i think this topic has generated such interesting responses because we in america – including so many in the flabby, fun-loving, whiny american church – are spoiled rotten with all of our toys (and we ALL have many, many toys compared to the vast majority of this planet’s inhabitants – millions of whom will die today because they simply do not have access to clean water) and we cling to them more dearly than we would ever admit or perhaps more than we even know. we have such an entitlement mentality (and it really comes through in some of these posts), as if a particular lifestyle or a certain level of comfort is a right or a guarantee. so many of the comments have inherent in them this prideful, arrogant tone of being owed something – perhaps even from God himself, because of all the sacrifice we are making on his behalf. makes me want to puke. let’s get over ourselves and fall on our faces in repentance. we are NOTHING. and we have nothing that has not first been given to us. money will kill you if you seek it and love it and crave it and want it in parity with how the rest of the world wants it. where do we get off with this nonsense i am reading in so many of these posts? how does some of this pity-party dribble square up with someone like hudson taylor, the great missionary to china, who said, “i never made a sacrifice.”
look, i am not saying to pay your pastor a paupers wage. i am saying pay attention to the posture of your own heart as it relates to money and stuff and your “rights” and your comfort and what you “deserve.” and if we get that right – us and our pastors – the pastor’s salary will work itself out and god will be glorified. the real issue here is not how much should we pay our pastors; the real issue is how much we should prostrate ourselves before christ to whom we owe everything! only here in america would this type of conversation be happening while just a plane ride away people are being killed for their faith in christ as we are headed out for a cappachino. Brothers and sisters are being martyred and we are mumbling about how pastors (or anyone else) aren’t paid their due. we aere quibbling about $10,000 that the next pastor got more than the previous one. god forgive us!!!!
As a former PK I agree, but I think Pastors are always stuck. If they request a raise or to be paid “average” based on the congregation or city it’s likely people won’t like a minister of the gospel asking for more $. On the other hand, if they stay silent and live at the poverty line they struggle to support their family and their wife may grow bitter or frustrated.
That’s precisely why churches need an elder advocate that see’s it the way Abraham does. So the Pastor can stay silent and focus on feeding the sheep while trustworthy elders make sure Pastor’s family is being supported.
On another note, if you don’t trust giving your Pastor say a 50% raise or increasing his income $30K because you think he’ll be tempted to pursue riches, then should that guy really be preaching and leading your people weekly?
Where will the money come from? The NT is fairly silent (perhaps there most interesting thing was Jesus’ take on the temple tax) , but the OT is full of clues for church finance. I hear Malachi 3 ALL the time, but NEVER Numbers 18. How can I go through nearly 4 decades of biblical exposition to hear the revenue teaching, while the disbursement teaching is censored??? If I was under the authority of the SEC, I would be jailed for this breach of ethics. Churches don’t get 10% of all pretax household income, like many of us would hope, and would allow nice compensation increases for church staff. Most churches receive 3-4%. Looking at the OT breakouts, 10% went to the Levites/priests, 10% to sacrifices and feasts, and 3.3% to the poor. Unfortunately, the church usually supports government programs for the poor, and our tax rates are much higher than 23.3%. Now maybe if our teachers could put all this together someday, we could design church compensation much better.
Rachael said, “And then there’s the issue of paying single women far less than married men because the men are supposed to be the providers, or something like that.
This is 100% illegal in the secular world, but done often in the Christian one.”
I understand your frustration, as many of my female school-teacher friends are paid less at their Christian Schools than their male teacher counterparts.
However, it is not illegal. If it were illegal in the secular world, that law would pass over to the Christian world, also. In fact, equal rights is still a hot-button issue and was used to discredit one side or another even in this last campaign. This still occurs all the time in secular businesses.
What about the whole concept of a pastor being worthy of “double honor”? How does that square with paying a pastor whatever is a comparable job in the secular workplace?
My take on it—for simplicity sake—find out what job is comparable (though none are purely, there are some that boast similar tasks), figure out what the average person makes in that field and double it for your pastor. If I was on a church board to determine a pastor’s salary that is how I would suggest it be done.
Just as Sharon mentioned towards the beginning of these comments, I was a little taken aback by the fact that my first salary with my Master’s Degree (which my dad also has) was so much higher than my dad’s , after 34 years as a minister. I do agree that pastors and ministers do not get paid very much, especially considering they almost always work “off the clock”. My dad spent countless hours in other people’s homes, nursing homes, hospitals, & funeral home parlors.
All of that said, in no way, shape, or form did my dad become a minister to make a “good” living. My dad’s job is who he is, a man who is caring and does so with a Christ-like heart. He accepted a calling to the ministry and furthering of the Gospel and takes joy in doing it. There were definitely some tight times growing up, but that was such a faith grower and a family strengthener. Now, don’t get me wrong, my dad would certainly take a raise, no question, but, as I hope any minister would echo, he’s not in it for the money.
Tommy, there’s a performance clause in the 1 Tim 5 reference. Let’s not censor that out.
Fascinating thread. Aren’t we mostly ignoring Abraham’s point tho?
“They should enable abundant, joyful generosity by paying them amply.”
I.e. Give them money like everyone else has – by being generous, and then they can choose to embrace living on little and being generous – rather than having it forced upon them by not being paid much….
I know, as someone who has spent 7 of the last 8 years in paid/unpaid “full-time ministry” that the joy comes too from pouring out your life for the gospel – but it’d have been a joy at times to have more money, not for the sake of having more money at all, but so we could be more generous to others.
i haven’t thought about this topic a lot, but i like this last comment from dave bish.
reading the comments here, my initial reaction is that it feels uncomfortable to “demand” or even expect a church to be able to completely compete with the marketplace. on the other hand, a church needs to realize that while staff positions are “ministries,” church staff need to live, too, and ought not to be punished for using their skills to edify the church rather than in the secular market.
i wholeheartedly agree. it takes a steady hand to carry a full cup, and we need more examples of what that looks like.
I agree. I’ll add that at the same time employees should be wary not to grumble about pay.
Paycheck. In America and likely the world, it is never enough. We consume everything we get and when there is a recession like we are in now, we pray for God’s deliverance.
We forget that God said to not borrow. If we had not debt, our paychecks would likely be large enough. As it is now, pastors crash and burn financially just like everyone else.
To him that is faithful in a little will be given more.
If everybody tithed, maybe they could.
One of the churches we attended did a “study” and found that if everyone in the church tithed, they wouldn’t have to take out a loan to build the church building.
Agree.
And church-goers might have to give more to enable this. I don’t know if giving is high or low in most churches, but that corresponds to the issue.
Also agree with Rob:
“Christians should also tip more.”
It’s shameful when Christians pass out a “Gospel” tract instead of a reasonable (generous?!?!) tip.
C.S. Lewis’ advice on giving has haunted me ever since I read it:
“I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. In other words,’ if our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc., is up to the standard common among those with the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot do because our charities expenditure excludes them.”
Of course, the question of whether anyone else but pastors be enumerated by the church. Should the church be an employer?
I don’t have the answers for this, but I think these are questions we should look at.
Is the weakness of the church today not perhaps related to the fact that the church has become an employer, and hence is run like a business with managers at the top?
Just thinking…
I disagree. I’ll leave it at that. ;-)
There’s a limit to being compensated by family size.
As a parent I even know that after a certain point kids are a choice…AND there are ways to keep things economical/affordable even if you have a crowd of them.
Also, I think education should also be considered when figuring out a salary.
More education should play out as more compensation.
Hey Dawn- Rob Hulson and I are married. Good thing you agree with both of us… telling that we are obviously on the same page. ;)
How about regardless of the salary, the church makes sure the needs of the pastors are met…if a pastor can’t afford to do a needed repair on his house, like add a fence to the property if he has a young family, the church should see to it that it gets done. I don’t think a pastor’s family should struggle to make ends meet, whether that need is met with a higher salary or the church providing in other ways–members providing materials and labor, etc. Same with overseas missionaries–their salary is lower than the average person, but other members of the body must see that they have their needs (and even some of their wants!) met!!!
I think that the education requirements for some positions should be comparable to salary that the church is willing to provide.
Pastors families know that they will live on what they are given. However, a pastor with an MDiv has gone through quite a bit, finacially, to get their degree(as i am now.) I think that perhaps we should change the way we pastors, or change the way that pastors pay for school.
It is a shame that some churches will not hire a pastor with a large amount of school loans, but they require him to get a $50,000(avg.) degree.
I have to agree with Abraham. My dad is a pastor, and I am planning to be, and nobody with half a brain gets into it for the money, but that doesn’t mean they should not be paid decently.
Dennis Muse: You are right that missionaries get paid very little, but in many places (not all) in the world, the cost of living is tremendously lower (not that they shouldn’t get paid more, but it is reality that for many around the world, the need is smaller). But we cannot argue only that missionaries should make more because they labor more (they do labor a lot, I’m not diminishing their work). My dad spends more than 10 hours a week in prayer for his flock, he spends upwards of 30 hours preparing for teaching (including sermons and other teaching, 3-6 hours a week of teaching), spends countless hours visiting people, spends time doing administrative tasks, and still manages to spend time at home with my mom (and others when home). He never has a day off. He deserves to get paid enough to survive on, but at some churches we have been at, if it were not for his retirement pay (from 24 years in the Air Force), he would not be able to pay for the house, for cars, medical expenses, or food. Even through this, he doesn’t complain. But he deserves more.
As for my church, we have 3/4 elders. One (who was our preaching elder), is being paid by our church to finish his doctorate. While he is gone we have another full time preaching elder, who gets paid enough to support his wife, his three young children, and himself. He will be moving to a church that ours has planted, and getting paid there. This elder who is constantly studying and teaching is paid enough to survive (though not much). But our other two elders (who speak up the most for paying the preaching elders enough) don’t get paid. They have other jobs and their own families to take care of, but they do their pastoral ministry out of love for the church, and feel called to their own jobs (one a professor of biblical studies, the other runs a non-profit ministry). There is definitely an element of joy that is inherent to one’s calling, but we need to pay pastors enough: to pay for house, food, clothing, bills, books, and enough that they can give with a generous heart (all Christians are called to give, why don’t we support our pastors in that?)
Another issue that might be sort of related. I have always grown up around churches where the musicians were unpaid, except for the music minister. But I have heard of churches where they pay the musicians who play in their services. I would be interested in hearing people’s take on that. I have dedicated many years to mastering my craft, including schooling, and I sort of feel that being expected to do it for free sort of devalues my profession, and my efforts. I realize it is not the same as the travesty of pastors not recieving just compensation.
Brad: We pay our musicians, worship director, as well as our pastors, ministry directors, and office staff. I suggest you read Numbers 18. I’m surprised that commenters here seem more interested in personal preferences than engaging in either the biblical patterns or the economics of Abraham’s post. I don’t think that is the way towards redemptive change.
Doesn’t this all depend on how much “more” is?
What? You mean it’s not “God’s job to keep the pastor humble and the congregations’s job to keep him poor”?
[...] Piper reckons Churches should pay more and asks how wide is our gospel [...]