Mar 13, 2009
I don’t get why some think a man must initiate a relationship to prove he can lead one.
The chutzpah it takes to ask a girl out and the constancy it takes to lead a family are distinct masculine attributes.
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So so so agree. Can I put enough “so”s in there. Great thought. Hope some great single Christian men read this. It is hard being a single female waiting for God to bring a long a Christian man who can lead in the way of initiating the relationship and not dragging it out as a “friendship”. And that doesn’t mean that we girls have to accept every offer that comes our way either…
Thank you!
We can spend all day parsing out all the many ‘distinct’ masculine attributes. But what’s wrong with a girl wanting more than one attribute in a future mate?
And, honestly, it’s more than just ‘chutzpah.’ Good leadership requires a willingness to initiate things, to take chances and to be willing to fail.
I’m not saying girls can’t ask guys out, or that a guy who has difficulties in this area can’t be good leaders otherwise. But it’s not invalid to take note of and respect a guys willingness to approach you first.
Seems like AP might be saying the opposite: that a man mustn’t necessarily initiate, because chutzpah and constancy are two different things. Am I reading that right? Or are you saying that chutzpah doesn’t necessarily indicate constancy?
It is a desirable masculine quality because most women want to be pursued. Though it seems as though culture has tried to reverse this.
Yes, Ash and Chelsea, it is perfectly reasonable to want the kind of guy that has the guts to ask you out.
I just don’t think that represents much about his potential leadership skills.
Hmm.
Need to think about this further.
i think it sets a precedent from the beginning of initiation. i think that things can still work without a man being this way but i believe they work best when he is this way because i believe men were designed this way. it is hard though, but so is loving your wife like Christ loves the church.
i would be interested to hear what Papa Piper would say about this area.
For some men, their seemingly high asking-out-chuzpah isn’t related to a sense of biblical leadership, but rather, audacity.
It might not be necessary for a man to initiate a relationship, but I think it sets the relationship up for his leadership. Not saying if he is the one who’s asked out it wont work, but I think most men would be a little put of by a woman coming up to him and requesting a date.
Furthermore, it is possible for a woman to show she is available and make herself known to the guy in an appropriate way and not ask him out. Is this too much trouble? Maybe for some, but I think that through patience and prayer it can work out quite nicely.
I couldn’t agree more, Abraham. With our new fellowship (Xenos Christian Fellowship in Columbus, OH), this is more of the “norm” — that is, girls asking guys to ‘hang out’ just as friends, over coffee, etc. But I have no doubts that men are stepping up to the plate to lead their families well (by God’s grace!).
A follow-up thought:
If having the courage to ask a girl out really correlates with having the courage to lead a family, wouldn’t it follow that those who have a hard time asking a girl out will have a hard time leading a family?
But I don’t think anyone would argue that. There are many shy guys who are great husbands and fathers. The fact that they shook in their boots while asking their future wife on a date has nothing to do with how they lead now.
I think you pushed the limits of sufficient communication of a thought in only 22 words with this one. :)
Interesting thought. I think you’ve said things along this theme before as well. As a 27 yo Christian single woman, I have a vested interested in the topic. Thanks for making me think.
Yes, Ann, I sometimes take this whole 22-word thing a little too far—try to do too much with it. :)
Unfortunately, I usually discover this after the fact.
I don’t think it matters how a man “feels” (nervous, shy, etc.), it matters that he “does”. If a guy can’t overcome nervous feelings to ask someone for a date, I’d be nervous about how he would lead a family. If he’s waiting for the girl to take initiative, how will he lead in other areas? Will he approach a job the same way?
Dads should model this to young men, setting them up for success rather than leaving them to figure it out on their own and be crippled by fear or passivity.
My wife picked me up, and she lets me do whatever I want.
Finally, someone who understands! I quake when approaching a girl for a date: I come near throwing up. And I never quite say the words I want to say: it always sounds like inebriated garble.
Oh, finally someone who says it’s okay to be me and to feel shy and nervous! –Because as soon as I “get into a relationship,” I feel more comfortable with scoping out the direction and taking the lead.
Totally agree, Abraham. Asking a girl out has more to do with projecting confidence, while leading a family has more to do with overcoming laziness.
Ross, I see what you’re saying but ultimately I disagree. Some men aren’t good salesmen, but they’re fantastic administrators. In my experience, being a good husband is more about taking care of the day to day details/responsibilities than it is conquering the world.
Ross, in my experience, the skills it takes to ask a girl out are not the same ones as it takes to lead a family.
Therefore, I don’t see how being bad at one has much to do with being bad at the other.
Lest 2 disagreeing comments toward Ross in a row there might seem like an attack:
Ross, you are very right that a man should seek to overcome his fears–especially fears of things that are important to do.
And I also completely agree that we should do our best to prevent our weaknesses from infecting our sons, too.
I appreciate the fact that some men face nervousness (and even fear) at the thought of approaching a woman to ask her out.
As a woman (with a rather strong personality), I have determined to allow the man to initiate because I know that I need to know that he is able to lead. I don’t want a relationship unless God is the center of it. If I initiate, I doubt myself on whether or not it was God’s best for me, or if it was me just “trying to make it happen.”
I stalked my wife down. I’m afraid I really can’t comment.
(disclaimer: she says I was stalking…I say I was petrified and trying to work up the nerve)
Abraham, I agree that these are two separate issues. In my experience, one can tell what kind of leader a man is by observing him in social and ministry-related settings. Also, it seems to take less courage and fortitude to ask a woman out than to lead a family. I estimate that at least 90% of the men who have asked me out were unwilling or unable to make an effort to lead amongst their peers or in a ministry.
I agree that the ability/confidence to initiate a relationship does not directly correlate with a man’s ability to lead an established relationship, but can I just say that this provokes a bit of turmoil within me?
Yes, I want to date, get married, etc… But don’t I want to know that he wanted and was willing to “come get me?”
I don’t know…
A leader who doesn’t pursue? A leader who won’t risk for those he’s leading? A leader who won’t initiate?
If we were talking about the skills necessary, it might be fine to say they are two different things…both needing to be learned. But to set them as separate things fails to take into account the truest heart of leadership. Leaders of the home who don’t pursue their wives and their children will soon find they have no followers. I’d like more for my daughters as we consider who God might have for them.
But please let me add that we are not looking for those men who are lacking nothing. We are looking for those who know what they lack and are teachable, yielded to Christ’s image of who they are to become. We understand that there will be progress evident to all. We won’t look down on him because he’s young but we want the one who is willingly to be the example for them in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
I guess I don’t see how asking a girl out is a sales pitch. It’s simply asking a question.
It’s probably best if you start out as authentic as possible. If you’re nervous around strangers, be nervous. If you’re bold and daring, be bold and daring. Be who you are.
When I asked my wife out on our first date I was nervous, but I cooked up a simple plan (dinner and watch the sunset), made sure I had the resources to pull it off, and then I simply asked her if she would like to go for dinner on a Friday night. One part creativity, one part administration, and a teensy bit of courage to ask the question.
I don’t think there was any sales or apologetics involved. However, I would say that I’ve spent the rest of our time together trying to show her that I would conquer the world for her and I think she likes it.
Abraham, I appreciate your blog and those who comment, as well as your great work on the DG site. Our crew at FamilyLife can learn a lot from your team.
I agree with AP. Asking someone out on a date is much different than asking someone to marry you. If someone is fun to be around why make yourself miserable by waiting for them to take the initiative.
My shy husband is a fantastic, godly, servant-leader who didn’t ask me out on a date, but did have the nerve to ask me to marry him.
i appreciate what both sides are saying. ultimately, i agree that asking a girl out on a date, or to date (if that’s what you mean by initiating a relationship), doesn’t have to be 100% initiated by the guy to be good.
on the other hand,
on the other hand, i witnessed a really extreme case of female initiative that turned out really badly – she pushed and pulled at the beginning and from then on, and even though he was a “leader” in the relationship to the point of being authoritarian at times, he wasn’t in the ways that mattered, and eventually backed out after 3.5 years. so of course there is potential for us to screw things up no matter which way we take.
i also understand what people are saying about risk-taking and so forth being desirable qualities in a male, which i agree with. but i think it looks different in different people. not every guy wants to “conquer the world” in the same way/degree, just like not every girl wants to be “pursued” in exactly the same way/degree.
I didn’t think it was about proving anything; I thought it was just the proper and gracious way to go about it. Ideally, he’s supposed to go to her parents first, right?
i made the first move, but he completely wears the pants. I agree with Jessica. Jonathan may not have made the first move, but he did have a lot of courage asking me to marry him.
when i think about a man leading and loving his wife in the way Christ loves the church , i think about him serving out of humility. and respecting and listening to his wife. and welcoming her voice and opinions. and pursuing her. and realizing that he will fail in all of this & letting that take him to the cross and leading him to repentance.
I am admittedly old-fashioned, probably to a fault. I do believe that starting the relantionship with strong male leadership, along with paternal permission, is the best possible scenario. As a woman, God created me to respond….not to intiate.
Of course, that doesn’t mean God doesn’t use other ways to bring a couple together, but my husband and I will be teaching our 3 sons to be gutsy and courageous in the initial steps of seeking a wife, and to continue in prayerful leading for the rest of their marriage.
Mrs. MK-are you saying God created you to respond, not initiate– in all areas of your marriage?
you know…
at first i was all “no”
but, then i thought about my own husband. and, dang it, you’re right.
my husband carries this family along in a way that i wouldn’t have predicted based on the beginnings of our relationship. hm.
I think we need to be careful not to confuse Christian leadership with a list of personality traits that our culture has established as defining male leadership within marriage. Gentleness, humility, and the ability to repent first define Christ-like leadership just as much (if not more than) a man’s ability to be gutsy or courageous. And I know a lot of gutsy, courageous women who don’t necessarily take away their husband’s ability to lead them, as well as plenty of women who never initiate with, but always seek to quietly control, their husbands…
I think that if a girl has begun to like one of her guy friends as more than just a friend, she does him an incredible disservice if she doesn’t say something to him about it. She doesn’t necessarily have to ask him out, but I think she should let him know she likes him. This way, if the guy realizes he likes her back, they can start a relationship. If he doesn’t like her back, they need to set up some boundaries in the relationship to guard each of their hearts.
I definitely agree. Thinking back to dorms, the guys with confidence to easily ask out girls were “players” – they had that confidence from going from one girl to another over the years. The guys who didn’t usually took it more seriously – they actually cared, it wasn’t a game for them. That’s why it was so hard.
It’s a good thing for a guy to take that step… but it says almost nothing about his ability to demonstrate Christlike headship in marriage.
Maybe not the initial asking out, but I think at some point the guy has to show her that he can get up the gumption to take initiative and take the risk of being shot down.
The reason is that this is a necessary pattern all throughout marriage.
Ten years after marriage, the woman is still going to appreciate the guy getting up the nerve to take a chance, to bare his feelings in a poem or buy some expensive jewelry that he picked out himself or whatever. To do something creatively romantic that may flop.
No guts no glory.
I think a guy needs to show that he can take these risks and be vulnerable because I think it is vital for the ongoing romance.
And now that I’ve thought about it some more, there is even an element of risk taking in leading a family as well.
John Piper says that the primary responsibility of discipline in the family belongs to the husband.
However, whenever I feel the need to discipline, I feel like I’m taking a risk. What if my kids say that they hate me afterwards? I’d be devastated.
And what if my wife disagrees with my choice of discipline? I spanked when she thought a time-out was in order.
I would (and do) feel very vulnerable here but also feel I must take the lead.
Another example: I lead in our family devotions. I always feel vulnerable when I’m picking out what to read. What if they blow me off? What if they think that was really stupid?
(Obviously, you can tell I’m a pretty vulnerable guy. It was only by God’s grace that I ever managed to ask my beautiful wife out.)
I think any guy who is considering asking a girl out that he has serious interest in or sees serious potential with will be nervous because if she rejects him, it will hurt more. But…most women expect men to initiate so it is the ugly truth that whether you want to or not, you will probably have to do the asking.
I also think women believe that letting a man know she is interested is automatically categorized as “flirty” or “inappropriate”. I don’t believe it has to be that way. Giving him appropriate hints can help calm his fears and bolster his courage.
A biblical example might be Ruth and Boaz. Ruth was proactive in pursuing Boaz, but Boaz was by no means passive.
I totally agree with the AP on this one, and have enjoyed greatly reading all the comments.
One of the manliest, marriage-leading men I have ever read about is John Paton (the missionary). I love the story about how his mom and dad met. His dad was known to go read and pray out in the country under a large tree. As his custom, he prayed with his hat off. One day, a lady who took a liking to him decided to go steal his hat whilst he pray. It wasn’t until after Paton’s dad realized what was going on that he got nervous. I’ve never read anything more practical and encouraging on family living that this book.
Perhaps men are sometime oblivious to what’s going on around them, and they need a little insight, female initiative – like stealing a hat.
Show me a relationship that was initiated by the woman, and I’ll show you a woman that probably isn’t the picture of a meek and quiet spirit. Not to say that there aren’t such cases; but when the woman initiates, as a general rule, she’s not known for her submissiveness.
Ker-So i guess your goal here is a submissive woman with meek and quiet spirit…
if a woman doesn’t initiate in the beginning of the relationship, at what point is she allowed to initiate? Or is she not ever supposed to initiate anything?
I am a woman married over eleven years and I amen Deron’s comment. It is good for the man to get some early practice and good for the woman to see some early signs of initiative because there are still risks (emotional and otherwise) to be taken by the man after the wedding vows.
Not every recipe that includes eggs is an omlet, but you can pretty much guarantee that a recipe without eggs is NOT one. Yes, there may be exceptions and yes, God is gracious – I’m just thinking about the “norm” here.
I think I’ve figured out part of what bothers me so much about this… And, I’m just asking questions, here. I’m not claiming to have everything figured out. I’m at a place in my own journey where I am questioning certain things I’ve just accepted in my 14 years as a Christian. The role of women in the church is one of those things. As long as AP opens these cans of worms, I’m most likely going to jump in and ask some questions. For now.
When we (the church) talk about the necessity of men initiating in dating relationships, it puts a WHOLE lot of pressure on women to make sure they aren’t initiating while there is also a WHOLE lot of pressure on men to step up, figure this thing out, make the right decisions, be romantic enough, be strong enough, be spiritual enough, etc. It leaves little room for God to work in a relationship if the two people involved are too worried about handling their perspective roles in the “proper” way that happens to be based on a few scripture references.
And, it’s hard for me to accept something as a biblical hard and fast rule/truth when it can’t be true 100% of the time. the whole “men lead/initiate and women respond, submit, & sit there quietly with a meek and gentle spirit” thing can’t be true 100% of the time. Women should be initiating some conversations. Women should be voicing their questions, concerns, thoughts, ideas, etc. as image-bearers of God. So if that is true–where is the line drawn? At what point can women speak, act, and think after they’ve been initiated to? If anyone can answer that one, go for it.
And, some of the ideas in this thread seem to be ignoring the fact that the gospel changes everything.
If/when my daughter begins dating, my hope is that she will be most concerned with whether or not the men she spends time with are loving God and are loving their neighbors. And whether or not they are believing the gospel, living in community, and willing to repent of their sin. I think if both the man and woman in a relationship are most concerned about those things that the rest of it will work out. Both will make mistakes at times & neither will handle the relationship perfectly, initiate perfectly or respond perfectly. But God is bigger than our imperfections and mistakes.
Deron….if your kids ever say they hate you after you disciplined them, you simply tell them, “That’s ok. You’re not required to love me. You are not even required to like me. However, you are required to submit to the discipline I provide as head of this family. I still love you.” Seriously.
If they are so frustrated that they feel they have to say they hate you, it’s important to let them know that the world hasn’t ended just because they are momentarily out of control.
To Melissa,
You did not make the first move, unless you mean you stalking me.
From Husband
I don’t mind the idea that the guy should be the one to ask the girl out, I would feel really awkward if a girl asked me out. But “initiation” may be something beyond just “asking out.” If a girl initiates in that she starts spending time with a guy and shows a little interest, that is cool. And some comments are missing that fear is not always simply of rejection that instant. Personally, I generally don’t ever consider dating a girl until we are good friends, and at that point, a lot of times asking the girl out is risking the entire friendship. I fear losing a friendship more than hearing the girl doesn’t really like me.
But it is also important for the girl to let the guy know (not necessarily verbally) that she might have some interest and is available. If the girl acts no differently toward any guys at any times, shows no favor, a lot of guys will never be willing to risk the friendship.
AP, your right. As a single guy, I see the clear distinctions, their as clear as day. Just hope to do the latter better than I have done the former (not that I am Mr Shaking in boots, though they are shaking)
I told my husband I liked him first.
He was grateful I did.
Which is to say, yes, I agree with you AP.
oh and p.s. he’s a fantastic leader of our family.
also, a great lover.
um. he’ll probably kill me for that.
[...] quite articulate my thoughts on the matter given how hot under the collar I am so I will leave this link. Please give me your thoughts on the topic and maybe when I’m calmed down enough I will be [...]
Why must it be the man who ‘leads’ the family? Why not both, in an equal partnership?
I usually like your musings, but not this one.
My wife contacted me first (on the Internet!), though I think I may have suggested we hang out in person first. I honestly don’t remember, but I also think it’s totally unimportant.
Then again, i don’t consider myself the “leader” of my family, but rather a partner in it. In my opinion there’s nothing masculine about being in charge. Masculinity has to do with being confident. Sometimes confidence includes the humility to admit you don’t have all the answers and the strength to not be threatened by treating the woman you share your life with as your equal.
as a girl who, in my high school years, asked guys out…it’s not so much a leadership trait thing as it is common sense to let men do the initial asking. typically, it really does work best this way. let me use a simple analogy to explain:
–any time a guy watching football wants a drink badly enough, he gets up off the couch and….gets it himself. no question about it.
–however, if a girl offers a guy a drink he hasn’t asked for, he may take it (or not), take a few sips, and then set it on the living room coffee table for her or someone else to clean up later.
make sense? if a guy really wants something, he’ll definitely take the initiative sooner or later. the girl never misses out, because he will definitely not let her get away. however, if he’s not sure and she takes the initiative, he may say yes…but she usually gets hurt in the long run when he finds someone he really does care to pursue passionately later.
it doesn’t mean women can’t or shouldn’t show interest in different ways — it just means that if she’s shown interest, and he’s interested back, he’ll ask, and she doesn’t need to worry about whether or not he’s afraid of hurting her or is really interested in her.
As a seasoned and tenured single female (LOL), I agree with both Ash and Chelsea that it is ABSOLUTELY reasonable to expect such. And I would prefer it that way. I have too much respect for God’s order and Sovereignty and too much fear of the influence of my deceitful heart to go “helping” some guy ask me out. I think prayer is the route to “help” him approach me if it’s God’s will. Which opens another can of worms in this whole mate discussion. I recently had a convo at my blog about mate selection that some here might find interesting. http://afewwordsfromtish.wordpress.com/ Would love to get feedback from some of you. Anywho.
At the same time, from experience, I have to cosign Abraham’s insight that this DOES NOT mean the guy can lead. I’ve had guys be quite decisive and appear quite the leader in their super “godly approach” to court me yet in the thick of the relationship behave shockingly boyish and on some levels “worldly” when conflicts arose in the relationship. I’m still going ummmmm?
My friend sent me a quote from this discussion and made me come here to read some comments. She sent me the one where that said something about male leadership involves an ability to REPENT FIRST among other traits! Amen to whoever gave that insight!
Abby said:
I estimate that at least 90% of the men who have asked me out were unwilling or unable to make an effort to lead amongst their peers or in a ministry…
________
And I’d like to add to this a caveat, just because a man is “in ministry” does not mean he can lead either! I’m 36 years old. I’ve been single a long time and by God’s grace relatively content. I just want to say there is quite a bit of “posturing” going on amid us in these Church and ministry settings, more than we’d like to admit. We are becoming skilled at making ourselves “appear” to be what we most desire or idealize–without giving God the access to our hearts so He can make us what we desire with a noticable level of integrity. I’ve seen many young men hailed as leaders in ministry and among their peers while scoring poorly as leaders in their homes as husbands or sons to their mothers and fathers. I can’t tell you the countless convos and prayer sessions I’ve had with weeping wives of young “ministry leaders” who make a good showing at the Church and among their peers! In the interest of extending grace to imperfect people, let’s not put our heads in the sand.
Pointing this out so as to encourage us to make prayer, patience, counsel, and cultivating a genuine humility before the Lord the pillars surrounding our thinking on mate selection! God gives grace to humble people and genuinely humble people tend to see the forest and the trees more clearly :)
fewwordsfromtish: amen.
Great read. Some awesome thoughts here….
I just think generally that in a feministic culture christian girls should be taught that the man is the leader and the initiator. And guys need to ask God for grace to be the man of God he has called them to be and if He so leads, take a step of faith…and to have some backbone.
Yes.
A question that pops into mind… how has the man lead in this friendship PRIOR to making his intentions known or asking her on a date?
I think some of us guys have run into the situation where we might have “jumped the gun” per se, prior to initiating in the friendship stage. What the guy does to establish the friendship PRIOR (or maybe during) to making intentions known will determine a lot about how that man can lead.
Or maybe the PRIOR could be DURING, maybe when is a preferential issue.
Thank you, AP, for bringing this up, helping me think about it all, & come to the realization that I am most likely not a complimentarian.
You are being used by God. :)
Great post, lovely blog! Just wondering: Why didn’t anyone respond to Charlotte’s comment?