Nov 24, 2009
Do you really believe in the deity of Christ?
A guest post by Wesley Hill
If he came to earth tomorrow, would your God go out partying with sinners?
If not, then Jesus must not be him.
Update: Wesley offers a quote that will hopefully be helpful for those who don’t like what this post seems to imply.
Sure, my God *did* that when He was here last. But he said when He comes again it won’t be a party for the non-believers.
Yea, well it certainly won’t be a party for the ones who think there’s no party for sinners either.
The point is that Jesus loves us sinners as we are and takes us to places we couldn’t have gone without Him.
God does not loves us just the way we are (sinful wretch), but He loves that we may be what He wants us to be (conformed to the images of His Son).
“God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Ps 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)
“Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psalm 5:5)
Grace and peace.
oops.image*!!!
Oh come on, this is all you seem to talk about… living like Jesus ACTUALLY did, blah blah blah,interpreting the Bible literally, blah, not making Jesus a 20th-century fundie, blah blah. =) keep it up sir.
“partying” ummm…what would be a 1st century equivalent to how Jesus really related? It wasn’t like he was holding the beer bong for the tax collector…
…but he was making potent wine for the already-drunk. John 2.
alright maybe I’ll give you that ;) but I’m positive he was yelling…”chug!, Chug!, Chug!…”
If by coming tomorrow you are referencing the second coming then I doubt there’d be any sinners to hang with (but I guess that depends on your eschatology.) If you’re talking about a repeat of the incarnation then I’d go party with sinners, especially if Jesus was inviting me to the party.
There aint gonna be nobody else to party with Dwayne.
Gosh, I hope so…else who would he party with?
Right on!
I’m with mike here. The concept of party carries a lot of baggage in our culture that I don’t think Jesus’ relationships with sinners carried.
It must have carried some of the same connotations, otherwise there would’ve been no motivation to call him a “drunkard.”
Of course, that doesn’t mean he was one. It just means that he was willing to do things that would make some other people think he was.
Precisely. The Pharisees wouldn’t have referred to him as a drunkard and glutton if he didn’t express any levity.
I agree with you as well. I’m not saying that he was chugging Welch’s with the sinners, but I doubt the verb “party,” with the connotations it carries today, would be an accurate description of what He did.
Obviously, there are many ways to define “party” but as I would define it I would say that Jesus would not be involved with it. That may just be my interpretation of the word though.
I’m sure these guys had “parties” that centered around the drunkenness and whatever else the night carried with it. Which is pretty much what our term “party” (in the most secular sense) means today.
However, it seems the gospels set the general focus of these “parties”, that Jesus went to, as being Jesus himself.
What? Everyone knows Jesus drank grape juice. If by ‘partying with sinners’ you mean drinking Welch’s, then yes. ;)
The question might lead us to another thought. SINCE Jesus is here today in the person of His Holy Spirit – Where will we find Him hanging out? Steve Brown, in his book “What Was I Thinking?” has a whole chapter entitled “The Holy Spirit Is Working In A Lot More Places Than I Thought He Was.”
Another thought…keep in mind what kind of precise law keepers the Pharisees were: Radical, legalistic, pride producing LAW keepers. I imagine it would take very little to have them accuse you of licentiousness. It is quite possible that Jesus merely being with, and relating too, was enough. There in-lies the difficulty with these questions…we’ll never really know…so do what you do now…follow your Spirit led conscious.
It’s very true that Jesus associated with sinners (just like me) but he did not embrace a sinful way of life. This post makes it sound as though Jesus’ return will be like a big keg party. That’s just not the picture that Scripture paints.
Jewish wedding feasts, however, (like the ones imaged in all our apocalyptic scriptures and used as the chief metaphor for the second coming) were not the tepid English-tea affairs I think some people commenting here would seem to prefer.
I really looking forward to toasting the new millennium with my Lord, Peter, John, Martin Luther … all the rest of the guys.
It will, without a doubt, be a celebratory affair for those who are in Christ.
Yeah, I’m having trouble seeing the “tomorrow” partying as an apples to apples comparison to Jesus’ entering the homes of sinners (still thinking on that). But surely he did give a scandalous honor and respect to the sinner by closely associating with him and gracing his dinner table. I heard a missionary say that Christians should keep an ash tray in their home. Of course, the Pharisees passing by seeing the smoke emanating from your home could say you were at the least a smoking enabler!
It’s good to see some of the commenters worrying about what this post might wrongly imply.
As a clarification, here’s a quote from Martyn Lloyd-Jones: “There is no better test as to whether a man is really preaching the New Testament gospel of salvation than this, that some people might misunderstand it and misinterpret it to mean that it really amounts to this, that because you are saved by grace alone it does not matter at all what you do; you can go on sinning as much as you like because it will redound all the more to the glory of grace. That is a very good test of gospel preaching. If my preaching and presentation of the gospel of salvation does not expose it to that misunderstanding, then it is not the gospel.”
Love the quote. What book was that in?
Amen. Thanks Wesley.
Paul writes Romans 6 because he knows the message of God’s grace in Christ will lead to that very question.
Pastor Mark Bergin (http://thepainteddoor.org) preached on identity in Christ at Mars Hill before we sent him out to plant The Painted Door in Chicago and told a story of sharing the Gospel w/ his Muslim neighbor who replied “so if what you’re saying is true, you could go out an murder someone right now and Jesus would still forgive you?”…Yep.
yep…except nope…ya know what I’m sayin.
Source please?
Brother,
Is Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones not talking about something altogether different than what your quote implies?
He is talking about sinners misunderstanding salvation by grace through faith. You are talking about Jesus “partying” with sinners.
I agree Adiel. Wesley, quoting M. Loyd-Jones has nothing to do with your post. What your post does imply was that Christ was being relevant by “partying” with sinners, thereby condoning what they were doing. I don’t think it does any good to bring God down to our level.
Ben … one might note that the very heart of the gospel is Christ “coming down to our level.”
I’m pretty sure his Father was OK with the whole situation, too … at least from what he seems to say.
No need to bring God down to our level. He took care of that on his own, embarrassing as it must have been for him.
I am aware of that. I was speaking to the choice of using the word “partying” which has connotations of a low view of God in this situation.
If he didn’t party with sinners, he’d be partying by himself.
I agree with Randy.
I also agree that Jesus is completely personal. When someone says (as I have said before), “I don’t think we should bring God down to our levels,” that’s exactly what God did physically 2000 years ago and is still doing spiritually constantly.
Christ is for everyone.
Sinners, tax collectors, partiers, *heavy* partiers, everyone.
Jesus was sinless – not exactly at our level, Randy. I agree with Ben. This flippantly makes it seem as though Jesus is “just one of us”. Not true.
Deb … oh, nevermind.
If Jesus did NOT party with the Pharisees, does that mean that the Pharisees were NOT sinners?
As Menchen said, “For every complex situation, there is a simple and straightforword explanation… that is wrong.”
The Pharisees were not sinners in the language of the day … the language that Jesus used. Sinner was a category of the day and age into which Jesus was speaking to. And he came to save the people in that category not those in the other category.
Sorry, I should have left the reference. It’s from Lloyd-Jones commentary on Romans 6, on p. 8 (but really the section continues through p. 10): http://www.amazon.com/Romans-Exposition-Chapter-New-Man/dp/0851511589/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_6
Not to belabor this discussion, but the point is that Jesus’ welcome — his feasting, his “partying” (I stand by the word choice) — for sinners was extravagant, profligate, shocking. The reason he could be so shockingly gracious, of course, is not because he let judgment slide. Rather, he took God’s judgment on himself.
The question is, do we look at Jesus and see what God is truly like? If Jesus reveals God perfectly (John 1:18), then we have a God who gave himself over to judgment so that he could show mercy to all the wrong people, the people who didn’t and don’t deserve it, the “ungodly” (Rom 4:5; 5:6) — like you and me, for instance.
Preach it, Wesley…and thank you, Dr. Lloyd-Jones, and thank you, Jesus!
It depends on what a person means by partying. When I was growing up, partying meant getting together to get drunk, smoke pot, or get high by any other means.
So no, my God would not do that, but he would be a friend to us without engaging in our sinful behavior.
Would he have hung around with us at our illegal, underage gatherings? I don’t think so.
Also, the quote in the original post says that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard. Does that mean they had seen him getting drunk and eating to the point of gluttony? If he is sinless, then he did not get drunk and he did not eat to the point of gluttony. Jesus was accused of a lot of things that he did not do. He was lied about. His followers were lied about, too.
He did say that he wasn’t going to drink of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.
Sounds like he is waiting for somewhat of a party and there will be wine!
I’m looking forward to it, and trusting it will be very different than the parties with wine that I have attended in high school and college, as well as the ones I’ve been to since then sponsored by places I have worked…
It might very well be different (as I hope it will be) but it sure as … isn’t going to be like most Bible studies I’ve been to either. Gack. If I have to choke down another bowl of chips and salsa without a corona in the feast that is to come … well … I just don’t think that’s what the Lord has in mind.
Pastor Piper once said, “God created bread so that we might know what he meant when he said, ‘I am the bread of life.’”
I would like to offer a corollary:
“God created wine so that we might know what he meant when he said, ‘I am the vine.’”
I so agree with you. It will be wonderful to have wine in a setting where there will be none of the problems that having it here so often produces. I realize it’s the people who produce the problems, not the wine itself necessarily–although its properties do have something to do with that.
As imperfect as they are, I still prefer Bible studies to my pre-Christian parties, and I know that is because I have been blessed with being in studies with very patient, understanding people who have been so kind to me in spite of all my failures and problems. Yet there have been some experiences that make me understand why some people leave, but it is so worth it not to give up on the church.
I like your corollary.
On the other hand, if we are thinking about the absence of alcohol as diminishing the joy of being in the Lord’s presence at all, then something is probably the matter…
My two cents – I would not call Jesus – and I don’t think the Bible supports it – a ‘party-er’.
As someone else said, partying implies getting drunk and bottom line, acting like a fool. I would argue Jesus never acted a fool.
As for the Pharisees calling him a ‘glutton and a drunkard’ – well – hello, it was the Pharisees calling him that. Remember those guys? The ‘we have the corner market on God and we don’t want anyone messing with it ’cause right now we have all the power and hold all the cards’. Of course they would say whatever against Him.
Jesus also helped prostitutes – but I don’t think he was paying them to turn a trick for him.
If envisioning your Jesus as a party-er gives your conscious some sense of peace – I would caution you to beware.
Remember – all things ARE lawful, but not all things are profitable.
Remember also we are not to follow the ways of a fool or to partake in things that contradict the hope that is within us.
Wow – I’m really surprised by the reaction to this post. I wouldn’t have guessed it would cause so many different responses… here’s mine for the mix! My thoughts went something like ‘OK, so what do I think God is like? From where am I getting my impressions of who he is? Hm, if it’s not from Jesus, then I’m going wrong… And the good news is that Jesus is, and was, willing to hang out with people who go wrong, and show them who he really is! Praise God!’
What Lloyd-Jones was trying to get across is that when you present the gospel you must present it to show you cannot earn salvation, that salvation is all of grace (gift) and not something to be earned.
What your post is implying is that a person saved by grace can just keep on sinning, which is not true at all.
“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, and saying:
‘ We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.” Matthew 11:16-19
Jesus condemned the attitude of His generation. No matter what He said or did, they took the opposite view. They were cynical and skeptical because He challenged their comfortable, secure and self-centered lives. Too often we justify our inconsistencies because listening to God may require us to change the way we live.
It seems that some commenting here may be misunderstanding the grace Jesus showed during His earthly ministry. He DID associate closely with sinners but He also called them (and me) to repentance.
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!” Romans 6:1-2a
I too associate the word ‘partying’ with night clubs full of half dressed people where drunkeness is the norm. Would Jesus go ‘partying’ there? Who knows. But the point is He would’ve done it and still remained sinless whereas I could definitely not. Which is why I don’t. Yes, I want to reach out to unbelievers. But I won’t do it in such a way that negatively affects my relationship with God.