Sep 9, 2010
The risks involved in burning the Koran are mainly the fault of Islam
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One of the biggest concerns that people have regarding Terry Jones’s intention to burn some Korans on Saturday is that it will endanger Christians and Americans in Islamic countries.
Both the president and General Petraeus have warned that this could risk the lives of our soldiers.
I just want [Jones] to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform.
So are Obama and Petraeus prejudiced, because it sounds to me like they’re simply assuming that Muslims are gonna get violent about this?
Jones told Nightline, “[Islam] is a very dangerous religion.” It seems our leadership and many Americans completely agree.
What happened to Islam being a religion of peace?
If what our leaders are saying is true, then the main problem isn’t some idiotic Floridian, it’s a worldwide religion that kills people because of an idiot.
Every religion includes offensive fringe freaks. Only one religion that I’m aware of makes the whole world scared for its safety when it gets insulted by one of these freaks who happens to have made it on the news.
How can we condemn Jones’s actions without also condemning the religion that makes his actions so dangerous? Sure, Jones is not being kind or prudent–He’s an absolute fool.–but the fact that he is causing legitimate worry about the safety of our soldiers, missionaries, expatriates, etc., is not his fault. It’s Islam’s.
Or…
Islam is a religion of peace and Obama, along with America at large, is unfairly concerned. In that case, there’s nothing to worry about.
* * * * *
Wow. Awesome point.
At last, someone else points out the obvious. Your article was much better.
I believe you to be on point, sir.
The guy’s an idiot and doing harm to the gospel, but you’re right. The assumed response says a lot about Islam.
Kevin DeYoung said something similar today:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2010/09/09/burning-the-koran-and-shooting-yourself-in-the-foot/
“Muslims extremism is seen more and more as a product of Western aggravation. One of my big concerns is that if the Koran burning takes place and if parts of the Muslim world erupt in violence and hatred, many Americans and Europeans will say, “Well, you can hardly blame them.” No, we can still blame them. Killing people or threatening to kill people is not one of the acceptable responses to your holy book being burned. It’s like telling your little brother, “Touch me again and I’ll clobber you.” The little brother is stupid to touch him, but the older brother is still wrong to punch him. I’m afraid this will be lost on most people who will see pictures of a church burning Korans and ignore the fact that some Muslims may see this an excuse to kill.”
President Obama, Abraham has something he wants to tell you. I wish he would listen to you (and himself).
It’s like saying Christianity is a religion of peace but worrying about abortion clinic bombers. This could put some people’s lives in danger, but the danger isn’t most Muslims (they’ll just be offended), it’s the crazy terrorists.
I think I could talk you out of that comparison…but not right now. I’m at work. :)
So, are you going to talk him out of it or what? I’m interested to heat that because my mind went exactly where Josh’s went as I read the article.
It’s a bad comparison because bombing abortion clinics is wrong both in liberal and fundamentalist Christianity. Bombing innocent civilians, however, is only wrong in liberal Islam.
I just got smarter by reading your reply (and Abraham’s original post). Feel like these ideas were out there as I’ve heard all of this debate, and I just couldn’t quite put my finger on why none of the news sat right.
Thanks for helping us dumb guys get it ;)
That and because people who call themselves Christians and bomb abortion clinics are acting in direct contrast to what the Bible says, not acting as a result of following what the Bible says. That and simply because not every person who calls themselves a Christian really is one.
I agree, but one would think that with the devastating economic embargoes enforced by the U.N. and unprovoked invasions of Muslim countries, some publicity whore of a pastor burning a copy of the Koran probably isn’t at the top of their list of grievances.
Just like some cartoons depicting Mohammad are not at the top of their list of grievances?
Snap! :)
Who is “their”?
Josh, I guess my only qualm with your statement is that abortion clinic bombers make up about .00001% of Christians and “radical” (read conservative Koran believing Muslims) make up a significant contingent of Islam. Don’t know the percentages but they are very prevalent. I would say at least 10%. Islam is inherently theocratic and it is clearly acceptable to kill in order to spread the Islamic faith according to the Koran.
I can see the point you are trying to make with percentages.(I think) However I’m not sure the percents should make a difference. if you are peace loving and in a specific religion that has a tangent group that is militant,you don’t want to be associated with them no matter how big they are. Oh and Christianity is inherently theocratic and it is clearly ok to commit mass genocide because God promised a plot land to you.
Great point, Abraham. Bringing something I hadn’t thought of yet, as usual.
It still pisses me off that this jackass of a ‘Christian” thinks he is defending Jesus and the Gospel. He’s a disgrace. And he doesn’t truly know Jesus or the Gospel. He cannot and still carry out his Koran-burning plan.
Right on target. Terry Jones is an idiot. There is no way that his actions can be justified in light of Peter’s admonition to “give a reason for our hope with gentleness and respect.” Nothing about his plan shows gentleness and respect.
He puts not only American soldiers but all soldiers, of all countries serving in the Iraq and Afghanistan at risk. But what no one seems to be talking about is that potentially thousands of Christians around the world in places like Indonesia could have their churches burned and their lives snuffed out because of extremist groups connecting Terry Jones church with theirs.
Islam is not a religion of peace and the only thing that keeps people from saying that phrase more clearly is the fact that it is true (not a religion of peace).
Here’s how I look at it: (and asked on Twitter yesterday)
I get that Koran burning = bad, but more bad/dangerous to USA than assassinations,bombings, and military occupation? Really?
Still no answers.
And as for the “crazy terrorists” – So this is going to make them more crazy? Give me a break.
Islams main issue with the West has nothing to do with “assassinations, bombings, and military occupation”. Their main issue is that the West is seen as the location of at least 2 of the main worldviews that counter Islam in the World – Christianity and Secularism.
Burning the Koran is a symbolic attack on Islam by Christianity in their eyes – and encourages more Muslims to get involved in the fight against the West.
But I agree with Abraham here – what this guy is doing wouldn’t even matter at all if it were any other book or any other religion. The only reason it is an issue is because of the militant nature of significant elements within Islam. Burn the Bible and Christians might be offended, but nobody will go kill somebody (and if they do, nearly every pastor in the world will be condemning that action, unlike a large number of Imams in Islam. Even the moderates throw blame on the offending party).
Abraham, my main concern for the troops is that the extremists (who in my opinion are not practicing their own proclaimed faith at all) are using the religion and the blatant disregard of it and it’s morality as a recruiting tool. This is been documented numerous times with even young American Muslims going overseas to join extremist groups.
Why would we want to give the crazies extra fodder to rile up young and passionate Muslims?
Think about how passionate you were about politics and faith and everything else when you were younger. Can you imagine if someone started burning bibles in blatant hatred for your faith? Not to mention all the mean looks you were getting at the grocery store. Someone might be able to focus that energy somewhere entirely destructive.
The comparison with young and “passionate” Christian youths rings hollow because it is. There is an inherent difference. Fundamentalist Christianity condemns violence. Fundamentalist Islam glorifies it.
Some fundamentalist Christians endorse violence.
Remember when Sinead O’Connor ripped up a picture of the pope on national television? Some Christians viewed that as an attack on their religion and responded with violent intentions. Their association with a non-violent religion doesn’t negate the violence inherent with in them that exists for no other reason than they are human.
I don’t remember ANY violent reaction to Sinead O’Conner’s poor taste. Do a search. It never happened.
Further, even if it did, it would be one or two isolated nut cases not the worldwide disruption that Terry Jones nonsense will produce.
I think that we agree, the violence in that case was not as extreme as what the realities of global terrorism are.
My point is more that violence exists in human nature and that religious affiliation does not own its own merit transform that nature.
Yes. All of us are capable of violence. The issue here is whether a religious text actually condones and glorifies violence. A fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran leads to just such an event. A fundamentalist interpretation of the Christian Scriptures does not.
Amen Jason! Amen Jason! Amen Jason! There is no room for coexistence when the one you are to coexist with wants you dead (or his religious text does)! We are not Muslim-haters by recognizing this fact.
Some fundamentalist Christians endorse violence. Some endorse war! There are Christians (and presumably non-Christians and Jews as well) who view the collective wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a war, not against terror, but against Islam. What is more, they believe it is justified to fight a war against Islam. They believe that Islam should be wiped from the face of the earth, even if we have to bloody our hands in the process.
Debbie Schlussel is just one example…
I should clarify that, Debbie Schlussel is actually Jewish, but a lot of the comments on her website come from fundamentalist Christians as well as Jews.
Religions are not all morally equivalent. We may try to say they are, but there are huge differences.
Politically, we keep pushing the idea that Islam isn’t violent (because if the president admits that it is, then we are saying our wars against terrorist extremists are actually wars against Islam). We can’t call it a war against Islamic Extremists or probe to what degree it is actually consistent with Mohammed (who raided caravans, executed Jewish colonies, and invaded cities in starting the religion). There is little to no evidence that Islam is a “religion of peace” (I can’t think of a more violent mainstream religion in the world), but it makes a good political talking point to call it that because we want to convince Muslims worldwide to reject violence, or at least to view the terrorists as not being real Muslims.
But, in the context of objectively examining the religion – Islam is no “Religion of Peace”.
Isn’t it the news media endangering our troops by giving this quack’s exercise in free speech a primetime platform?
If it wasn’t for the indignation about an act completely supported by the constitution (although not by better judgment) this guy’s platform would be limited to his own small congregation and the squirrels who happen to be watching in the nearby forest.
I have been wondering the same thing. Maybe if the media stopped covering this it would be a non-issue. I keep thinking of how whenever there’s a streaker at a sporting event and the cameras cut away so as not to give them the attention they seek. Couldn’t the media do the same thing with this guy?
(great post, by the way).
It’s exactly the same thing. Free speech is not a news item. Big deal. The guy is burning books.
It is now a tolerance-moral-indignation-look-at-those-stupid-christians issue which has way more entertainment value to the news/entertainment industry.
Interesting how differently it is treated than the other “free speech/freedom of religion” issue in the news – the Ground Zero Mosque.
Is anyone else concerned that this is a Pastor of a church with less than 50 members? If I got 50 of my friends together, and do something stupid, would I get an international reaction? The way I see it, this man and his church, representing an extremely small percentage of all Christians worldwide, is creating a disproportionate stain on the name of Jesus Christ. As if the world’s perception of Christians being extremists and violent radicals isn’t enough.
Harm to the Gospel seems to be a bit of an exaggeration. People may hate Christians more but I don’t think you can actually hurt the Gospel.
Great point. I was pondering writing something similar, and in my research came across this interesting site detailing some atrocities committed by the religion of peace. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
No need to write it now, you covered it well.
I just don’t think that burning the Koran is a very neighborly thing to do. Sure he has teh right to do it. I am glad we have a country that allows us to express ourselves in lots of ways. I don’t think it means we always should.
I am not the bible-quoting type, but this passage comes to mind:
Romans 12:18
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
I think that Muslims who get all bent out of shape about cartoons and book burnings and respond with terrorism are idiots. But I still think that the world doesn’t need one more idiot poking a stick at a hornets nest in the name of Jesus.
You are a wise one Groove!
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” – JESUS
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=NIV
How dare you quote Jesus’s own words to me. Can’t you see I’m trying to defend Jesus by hating his enemies!
Not to provoke, but is Christianity a “religion of peace”?
Based on the way we are called to live as followers of Jesus… Yes.
If you want to find your answer by looking to the lives of severely depraved and sinful people (like we all are) then your answer is… No.
If you are a Christian or a soldier in a Muslim country, aren’t you in danger despite lunatic Floridian pastors? Are angry, extremist Muslims going to get more angrier?
I disagree. What Pastor Jones is proposing is terrorism – the deliberate commission of an act of violence to create an emotional response through the suffering of the victims in the furtherance of a political or social agenda. (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism)
The weakness of the argument is that it generalizes and attributes the actions of a fringe to the larger group. The concern isn’t a violent reaction from Islam, the concern is a violent reaction from individual Islamists.
The fact that Jones is causing fear is his fault. The proof that Jones’s terrorism will further provoke terrorism directed toward Christians or Americans is Jones act itself. His stated intention for the act is to “stand up, confront terrorism.”
His choice to focus on the Koran as a religious symbol is deliberate. The violence of burning it is intended create an emotional response of suffering. Jones is not ignorant of these things. He’s committing them in response to previous acts of terrorism which he (and many) generalize to be endorsed by (if not committed because of) Islam itself.
This is so clearly an act of terrorism committed by a fringe element of a major world religion – but no one is calling it that. Is responding to terrorism with terrorism a right reserved only Americans or Christians (or whatever shade of hybrid Jones is)?
We can say “What happened to Islam being a religion of peace?”. Could you not also look at the situation from the outside in and just as easily say “What happened to Christianity being a religion that turns the other cheek?”
Are you sure you want to redefine terrorism so that it includes violence toward inanimate objects?
Not redefine, just recognize that inanimate objects can be a channel for terrorism. If I burned a picture of your children in front of you, would it not evoke an emotional reaction and be likely to cause you suffering?
Are there not other inanimate objects in your life that you’ve made into agents for what you hold most dear?
Since we’re friends, it isn’t fun thinking of specific things that I know that if desecrated would break your heart. But they exist.
Kevin, if you really believe book burning is terrorism your efforts need to be focused on the Middle East where bibles are burnt daily. And if you equate the threat of burning a picture of someone’s children in front of them with burning of a book, I would hope you are not a leader of others or a judge of any sort.
Okay. The point of the analogy is to show that just because a book isn’t important to you or me doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have significant importance to others.
A deliberate act designed to cause suffering in the name of a political agenda is the definition of terrorism.
What exactly does book burning in this circumstance achieve other than provoking others? To quote MLK Jr. “Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars… Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
If (by what I’m assuming is your claim) symbolic acts of violence without actual physical threat or contact aren’t real violence then all the victims of emotional abuse have nothing to complain about.
Maybe if this pastor hadn’t taken it upon himself to send a message on behalf of our society that is political in nature I wouldn’t be as concerned. No, I would be. But I wouldn’t call him a terrorist. I’d just call him an abusive bully.
Since I’m pretty sure no one in this country elected him nor did any elected official appoint him to a position where he represents the interests of the United States on the world stage, I’d prefer that he not speak on the behalf of Americans, or at least me.
p.s. Thank you for your recommendations regarding where I might employ myself. I had been considering a career as a judge but your advice (which I assume is based on the great knowledge you have of me and my character that you have derived based on my name and the 9 paragraphs I wrote here), well, it’s very much appreciated.
I’d return the favor but I don’t know your name. Sorry.
p.p.s I also want to say thank you for taking the time to read the 9 paragraphs that I wrote.
p.p.p.s. Regarding my involvement in leadership, I am married and have children I guess I am currently in a position of leadership, at least so far as the Bible and the IRS are concerned. So that’s unfortunate.
Kevin,
I sincerely apologize if I went to far with a personal attack, I did not intend to do so. What I intended to say was that your linking of a book burning with burning of a picture of someone’s kids does not display a proper understanding of how we legislate terrorism.
I also did not intend to say that emotional abuse victims have nothing to complain about, but I would say that they cannot bring terrorism charges against their abuser. You did not need to “assume” my claim in this area.
And, I did not speak in favor of what this pastor is doing either. I was only challenging one of your arguments in this matter. You opened your statement by calling this pastor’s actions “Terrorism”. Now you say you would not call him a terrorist. There is nothing wrong with someone challenging this kind of shifting thinking, but I truly do not intend for it to be a personal attack.
I do not share my name in a forum like this from experience. Most of the “let’s love everyone and be tolerant of everything” crowd are far from loving or tolerant when someone disagrees with them. For the record, I don’t think this pastor is pulling much more than a publicity stunt, but I could be wrong. And you are welcome for having read your nine paragraphs, though they were dripping with sarcasm.
Can’t reply directly to your response so I hope this lines up.
First, thanks for your civility and response.
Second, I stand by my assertion that Pastor Jones’s burning of the Koran (if they do through with it) is a form of terrorism since it has the elements of
1. violence (indirect),
2. intent to cause suffering (to Muslim terrorists – though I imagine it’s directed at Muslims in general I can’t say for sure), and
3. furtherance of a political agenda (i.e. “standing up” to terrorism, which regardless of this whole drama being acted out by “fringe” elements both Islamic jihadists and American fundamental Christians, is being played out on the global stage, drawing national interest into it).
I wish the deadly combination of desiring attention and media’s perverse fixation on these types of stories didn’t whip the whole thing into a frenzy. But it did.
Anyway, I do appreciate your reactions and challenges. So my sarcasm was apparent? I especially bring it out I’m potentially addressing “hit and run” comments. Anyway, I think you following up speaks volumes and can respect your reasons for anonymity.
I see the merit of your “focused on the Middle East” statement. The challenge is how to have good intellectual debate in this format. There is so much nuance and uncertainty in issues like this that you can either cite escalating atrocities or you can try and discuss specific topics with a veil of ignorance about broader issues. Neither is perfect.
And, in conclusion and for the record, I agree that books ultimately are nothing more than stacks of paper. But such objective rationalization can minimize the emotional and empathic importance of objects for people. A fact that P. Jones is very aware. Unless the selection of the Koran was coincidence.
You make a couple points I do not agree with, but I’ll do my best to summarize here.
I do not agree that books are merely stacks of paper, and completely understand how someone could be mistaken in calling a Koran burning “terrorism”. It is simply an incorrect assesment. I have been studying Islam-Christianity and Islam-Judaism relations for nearly ten years, and can speak with some certainty (more than just uneducated opinion) that there is no way to have an “intellectual debate” in this forum. And here is why.
In the Koran Muslims are told that they can lie if it is for the greater good and helps promote or protect Islam. It is called “Taqiya”. Therefore their religious leaders, their Imam’s etc can lie and they do it everytime they are on the air or are being quoted in print. Their text also teaches very clearly “…death to the infidel.” And you will not find a majority of “peaceful” muslims speaking out publically against the “fundamentalists”. Do you know why? Because they know that the “fundamentalists” are the ones actually practicing the fundamentals of their faith.
Those who are in leadership positions and have to study this belief system in order to arrive at an official position do not have the benefit of sitting back and worrying about feelings. The Jews do not have the benefit of trying to get along with their neighbors, especially after reading what Islam is at it’s core. This is not a peaceful religion, which is what your friend is trying to help demonstrate with this article. I would strongly encourage you to read (or go back and re-read) your Koran and take a hard look at what is happening in the Islamic world.
I have seen a comment that said “this pastor is going to get us all killed”. That is not a truthful statement at all. Islam is going to get us all killed. Especially if we continue to argue emotionally rather than intellectually. I don’t want to see innocent Muslims in the US hurt or rounded up or face any kind of harm. However, I do want to see them denounce their faith when they plainly see that their text puts lying to advance their cause or death to the infidel in their hands. No fundamental Christian or Jew has this kind of charge commanded in their texts.
I often hear the uneducated ring of “Coexistence” in these types of forums. Climb in a cage at the zoo and “coexist” with a tiger for a couple days. It is nothing but hatred and foolishness to tell Jews to “coexist” with Muslims, who want them dead and will lie if need be in order to make that happen. The hatred has now been brought to American soil, and it will take advantage of our very high level of tolerance. What is disheartening is hearing those who know and expose what we are dealing with being called hateful. Your friend who wrote this article knows what he is talking about, and he is not wrong.
You sound like a sincere man, and an intelligent person. I hope you take some time to investigate Islam further. If you hold an opinion (as I think MLK Jr. would) that we should not have boots on the ground in a foreign country “returning hate for hate” so be it. But much of what this discussion has been about is defending ourselves here, in this country, and that is a different story. The pastor’s stunt was all about the Imam in NYC and the ground zero mosque, and there is nothing hateful or intolerant about not wanting it placed there.
“but the fact that he is causing legitimate worry…is not his fault”
That is interesting logic Abraham. We should just diminish Jones’ responsibility for his own agency because after all-he is not the one actually killing people-he is simply intentionally endangering others by committing an act that he knows will incite murder.
“Only one religion that I’m aware of makes the whole world scared”
Seriously? You are actually implying that the actions of a few define the whole? We are scared not because of the justifiable outrage on behalf of Muslims who hold the Qu’ran to be sacred; we are scared because we know that radical terrorists can and will use this as a recruiting tool for displaced and disenfranchised Muslims, to increase pressure on our remaining forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to widen the divide between Muslim/Western relations.
It is unhelpful for you to muddle your minuscule condemnation of Jones (all personal attacks by the way, no actual condemnation of his actions) with your fervent, unsubstantiated, short-sited view of Islam within a broader global and historical context.
Your post is heavily reliant on rhetorically pathetic arguments and is intelligently irresponsible.
You can’t deny the world is scared of Islam. If not the world, at least many countries! And if not many countries, at the very, very least, millions of individuals. Whether we SHOULD be afraid of individuals or a religion is another argument. The fact is that we ARE scared of Islam, whether that’s how it SHOULD be or not.
along the same lines… if I aggravated a potentially violent dog & the result was that it bit a child, would I be held responsible?
You’re right – any problems this causes are the largely fault of some muslims. But that doesn’t change the fact that this guy doesn’t have to do this. It’s hateful and arrogant.
It’s important to remember (not that this is an excuse) that to muslims the Koran is not just a bunch of paper and ink. Four us, it’s the content of the bible that’s important. For them it’s at least as much the book itself.
I like this post. I think you are right on, AP!
As far as the gospel is concerned, I have full confidence that God’s purposes (ie the Gospel going forth to all nations) cannot be thwarted. Even if there are idiotic people who burn Korans. And even though, I’m not into book burning, I do idiotic things daily that should keep people from wanting to worship the God that I worship. But God intends to set aside a people for Himself, and the fact that He uses jacked up people to bring others to Himself is a powerful mystery to me (2 Cor 4:7).
I certainly think what Jones is doing is foolish. And I’m thankful for His grace that I’m able to see it as that and not jump on his bandwagon.
Good word, Melissa.
I would agree with your point, if American troops were fighting moderate Muslims. The problem is that American troops are fighting the Taliban in a country that has been occupied by multiple countries over the years. Troops are fighting amidst a group of people who are angry at occupiers and what this will do is rally people to their cause. Part of it has to do with previous language, such as when Bush used the word “crusade” to describe the mission, but frankly the idea that America is a Christian nation. Here is a self described Christian nation invading an Islamic nation with a heavy Taliban influence. What would you think?
http://liamthatcher.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/to-the-book-burners-give-jesus-back-his-coat/
Nice post!
But I tell you who hear me: Love Muslims, do good to Muslims, bless Muslims, pray for Muslims. If a Muslim strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If a Muslim takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to every Muslim who asks you, and if a Muslim takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to Muslims as you would have them do to you.
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love Muslims, do good to Muslims, and lend to Muslims without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
I cannot believe you posted this! You have no business handling scripture sir. This is not what the bible says, and you cannot simply substitute words to make them say what you wish them to say. These, however, are the words of Christ speaking to a church that maintained a fundamental orthodoxy:
“I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name and have not grown weary.”
Jesus later in the same admonition of this church says “You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”
Orthodox Christianity strives to stand for the truth of the Word. What you have done here is to blend your version of reality with the Word, and there is much to be said about people who do what you have just done.
He’s just making a point! And a good one at that… I think you’re overreacting and mishandling scripture yourself…
How so?
The scriptures you are quoting are intending for those who claim to be Christians, but are in serious error. They are leading Christians astray.
Muslims are not claiming to be Christians. They are outside of the Church.
@Chris
I challenge you… read the “unsubstituted” scripture. I’ll provide a link copied from @turntheothercheek’s post above:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=NIV
These are Jesus’ words. Not mine. I simply substituted Muslim (though I agree with @kirsty that it should have probably been “radical, extremist, or violent Muslims”) to make a point that we conveniently forget Christ’s words to LOVE those that do not love us in return. In this particular case, it’s Muslims that we need to display love to. Substitute whatever group or people that you currently hate or can’t tolerate.
Agreed, the scripture you quote does say to “hate the practices of…”. However, it does NOT say to retaliate the evil practices or to hate the individuals who practice those intolerable acts.
Lest we all forget as well… from Jesus’ own lips the two greatest commandments are to love God and to love others. Please explain how hate and retaliation could possibly be justified as loving others.
I think we, especially we American evangelicals, are too quick to “jump to God’s defense”. Instead: “Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.”
Let’s not get in a “scripture quoting war”… I think it is quite clear what Jesus’ own response would be. We need look no further than his arrest, trial, and crucifixion. All of which he endured without retaliation or retribution with simply the reply of “Father, forgive them…”
God’s peace.
I will agree that a scripture qoting war is not edifying here. But I still think it reckless to replace “enemies”, “one another”, and “each other” with the word Muslim as you have done.
In the end, we probably agree on this pastor’s publicity stunt. My point was that Jesus clearly hates sin, and by his actions (in the temple) and words (Luke 22:36) demonstrated that He intends Christians to stand firm. I do not think it wrong in any way for Christians in general or for this nation to stand firm against Islam and the lie of being a peaceful religion that it claims.
I do pray for the few Muslims I know, I do not practice violence against them, I maintian the friendships, and I do not burn Korans (in fact I keep a copy for reference). However, my Muslim friends are only friends so long as they do not practice what their text commands, and that is “death to the infidel.” Conversely, my text commands the opposite, which you articulate well here, and which Jesus lived. I do not find it necessary to “defend God” and did not claim that Muslims claim to be Christian.
Amen!
(Tho’ I would substitute ‘violent Muslims’ for ‘Muslims’ – none of the Muslims I have known could be remotely described as my ‘enemies’).
Yes.
Here a few facts I learned yesterday about this so called Pastor. As reported by the church he was a member of in Germany. He left there in 1980 because he was having issues with keeping his hands out of the churches money.The church completely denounces this current action he is proposing. His daughter is estranged from him for a long time now.
Wow this sounds like a man that is putting my Lord and Savior first in all that he does. By the way he is also selling t=shirts and mugs with hateful saying on them, so that means he is profiting from this whole charade. He has gotten a lot of free publicity.
I agree 100% with your evaluation of the intentions of the Muslim religion and I believe such an action like burning the Koran will play right into their hands. What is the First commandment? And the second? Pray that he will change his mind.
I’m not sure that slandering the pastor involved is going to help the situation.
I couldn’t agree more. Thank you again for stating the obvious.
I didn’t read all of the comments so this may have already been said… The amount of news coverage we give this idiot is up to the American media. If we are truly worried about our soldiers safety then why is Jones on the news every night? It is the American media that is stirring the pot here. It is hard to ignore the fact that it seems the media would like nothing more than to be able to blame the “Christian” American for the violence/deaths that the Islamic terrorists might commit. Apparently the “look at how intolerant Christianity is” story is worth more than protecting our soldiers lives? Now if our soldiers or Christians are killed in response to Jones it will be his his fault. God forbid we hold the Muslims accountable. However, I’m pretty sure if I killed someone because they burned the Bible I would be a “violent, intolerant Christian”.
Great point! Completely agree.
I agree, this man, knows nothing of the gospel of Jesus…but, how in the world does a man who pastors a place of, I’m guessing 50 or so people get so much press? Would anyone even know about this, had the media not picked it up? Why in the world are we so afraid of how a religion of peace will react to a numbnut pastor?
One of the professors at Covenant seminary sent this letter to the pastor of that church as part of his attempt at reasoning with them:
http://dunhams.typepad.com/seconddrafts/2010/09/a-response-to-international-burn-a-koran-day.html
It’s well said, to be sure.
Finally! Someone said what needed to be said and said it perfectly. Thank you!
i’m glad that you agree that killing 250,000 iraqis (by the most conservative studies, most go up to one million) for the actions of 17 saudis is wrong.
was King David’s Judaism a religion of peace?
shalom.
Is King David’s Judaism the Judaism of today? Are modern Jews commanded to perform “death to the infidel?”
Where was the outcry by our president a few months ago when Christians were martyred by Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan? I wonder if the same world leaders who have decried the act of burning the Q’ran as a ‘perversion’ would react similarly if an Islamic congregation burned a Bible? Of course not!
My advice to Terry Jones: hold yourself accountable to other believers and remember that God doesn’t ‘issue orders’ that contradict His Word.
Mark, there was indeed an outcry from the Presidential Office. As an expat living in India, I heard it loudly. Just as there have been for other unjust attacks on westerners – intervention has not been one-sided. Unfortunately, it doesn’t serve the American political agenda to broadcast these as much as it does to stir up anti-Islamic sentiments.
You bring up an interesting point, and I agree, although I would say that they are both at fault – Pastor Jones is clearly inciting violence when he knows that what he is doing will incite violence regardless of whether that violence is unfounded or not. Muslim extremists have already warned him of their intended response and he’s not ignorant of it.
The Muslim extremists who threaten violence – and will do it if the Korans are actually burned – are clearly overreacting to the burning of a book – regardless of how much value that book has in their minds. Should they be offended? Yes. Should they be angry? Yes. But should they kill people because of it? Absolutely not. But Pastor Jones has the opportunity to back off and prevent the whole thing, so I hope that he actually does that.
And by the way, was it really necessary to call your brother in the Lord an “idiot” and a “fool”? Is that how you lovingly rebuke someone?
No, I don’t suppose it was necessary.
I think it’s necessary to call him a fool, at least. Jesus certainly called Pharisee’s worse.
And I’m not assuming this man is a “brother in the Lord.” By his love for people, he’s not showing that.
Burning Korans is not a salvation issue and I’m not sure I have enough evidence to question Pastor Terry’s salvation. Jesus could see into men’s hearts; we can’t. He had the authority to call the Pharisees fools and worse. I’m not sure we do.
Is Terry Jones an idiot? Well, maybe another way to look at this is to ask where these ideas of his come from? What made him view Islam with such hatred instead of clear, Christ-centered thinking? Or should I say “Who”? Maybe this is an example of Satan finding a weakness, a fear, a whatever, that allowed him to get his foot into the door of Terry Jones’ heart where he proceeded to grow and lead astray. We all have flaws that Satan can exploit- maybe that is what is happening only it’s happening is such a way that Mr Jones, a professing lover of God, doesn’t comprehend that his witness for God is being corrupted horribly. Just like Pharoh’s heart was hardened and he couldn’t hear reason, maybe Mr Jones’ heart has been hardened by Satan and he can’t hear reason either. Just a thought. I’m not saying he’s possessed or anything, but we really should be praying for Mr Jones, not just the situation.
Extremely thought-provoking and well stated post, Abraham. You’ve given me a lot to mull over this afternoon!
THIS crap is exactly why I don’t go to church anymore. I’m really glad that some Christians, particularly this man, think that they speak for ALL of America. BS. I don’t want to be a part of a church anymore because so many are hypocrits and don’t practice what they preach…especially loving one another. I’m not going to disapprove of gays, or those of a different religion. If you ask yourself, WWJD, this post wouldn’t have even been started…I highly doubt Jesus would start balogney like this.
The Church is not a building or a pastor. Perhaps your inability to get along with other Christians has something to do with your own heart as well.
While it’s true that the church is not a building or a pastor, I think that it’s precisely comments like that that have kept him out of the church! I’m quite sure that the problem really is hypocritical Christians because quite frankly, ALL of us are hypocrites because we’re still sinners. We don’t magically get turned into perfect people when we come to Christ. That will never change. And sadly, that’s one part of Christianity that is really hard to understand from the outside. But to put the onus of the problem on him is just another reason for him to hate the church.
From the font I can’t tell if your name is Amie or Arnie, so I apologize that I’m going with Arnie if that’s incorrect. I totally understand why you feel that way. Quite frankly, ALL Christians are hypocrites because we all still sin. That’s not what we WANT to do, but unfortunately, we still do it sometimes. That will never change. We don’t magically become perfect people when we come to Christ. I know that is difficult to comprehend because it sounds like a cop out, but it really isn’t and I really don’t know how to really explain it.
I agree that Jesus would not have burned Korans or called brothers in the Lord idiots. But I do believe that He would want you to come to Him anyway. However, there are no “Lone Ranger” Christians. So if you’re going to come to Christ, you need to come to Him and find a way to get along with the rest of us too. Hopefully you will find some that don’t treat you as you have been treated in the past or on this forum. But please know that we’re not all like that. Where you spend eternity is worth that little bit of conflict.
The most clever response I’ve read on the whole subject.
He has called the bluff of Islam and gut-checked everyone’s hypocrisy.
However, I agree with Phil Johnson. This man’s responsibility as a Christian pastor is the gospel. Which ‘ought be more controversial than this.
Great article!! Why worry about repercussions if whoever is going to be offended is ‘peaceful and loving’? Why such fear if Islam is a religion of ‘peace and love’ as Obama and the govt would have it’s people believe? While I don’t agree with burning the Quran – Jones’ focus should be on sharing the Gospel; I do question why such a fuss was made over this when there are so many instances of flag burning, Bible burning, and Christian persecution by Muslims and has been for years. Why more people don’t question this hypocrisy is beyond me!
Your comment is ridiculous! Do you seriously believe that? Obama and Petraeus are not prejudiced, they know that there are extremist who would use such a thing to fuel fire, drawing uneducated people into the fight (have you ever read Three Cups of Tea – educating people can make a difference). Apparently, I have been greatly confused by the amount of educated people in my own country. I suppose one could take a step back and talk about how murderous Americans (or some around the world would just lump them all into the category of Christian) are…blowing up abortion clinics, comparing us to the Terry Nichols of the country, etc. etc.
It is interesting to see the response to a threatened burning of a Quran, when in a number of Islamic countries burning of Bibles, Christian churches, killing of Christians and rape of Christian girls is nearly a daily routine.
Check up at Crosswalk.com and sign up for their religion news. Almost everyday they give reports of such actions and that is only a tip of the possible cases. Most of these occurrences are not done by terrorists or extremists, but everyday muslim believers who sincerely believe and practice what Muhammad taught.
Awesome! Great post!
Ironically, 500 years ago Islam was a religion more tolerant than Christianity, and the roles had been switched. I hope they don’t get switched again and they stop taking turns. To complete the picture just remember that the Bible (new testament) is also a sacred book for Islam, including the prophet Jesus and his mother Mary. So be sure that Islamists will never dare to burn the Bible or the New Testament.
I think he canceled the Koran burning because ultimately, he was afraid of his own safety. I wouldn’t be surprised that a news story comes out some time in the next year when the man is found dead.
Is this like saying Christianity is a religion of legalism because many are tempted toward legalistic misinterpretation of certain verses?
Why or why not?